27 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You sign guys like this on the FA market, and not give up your guys to get them.  Getting a reliever to flip isn't the problem,  it is diminishing your return by wasting your farm system to get them.

It would have been interesting to see if guys like Booser and Gilbert would have been cut outright eventually and become free agents with no other teams having interest, had Getz not jumped to give up a player for them.

Edited January 2, 20251 yr by WhiteSox2023

Bannister obviously likes Gilbert. I don't think Combs is worth much hand wringing but it's a bizarre strategy they're employing giving up young players for 30+ year old relievers. 

6 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Bannister obviously likes Gilbert. I don't think Combs is worth much hand wringing but it's a bizarre strategy they're employing giving up young players for 30+ year old relievers. 

It's obviously what happens when you have zero additional budget for adding veteran bullpen arms, but you also want to avoid another all-time worst record simultaneously.

Rock and a hard place.

The Law of Diminishing Returns...we're pretty much the anti-Dodgers, almost.

Didn't we just have a whole thread about how there wasn't room in the bullpen?

31 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You sign guys like this on the FA market, and not give up your guys to get them.  Getting a reliever to flip isn't the problem,  it is diminishing your return by wasting your farm system to get them.

We don't know he's just a "reliever to flip". He's got experience starting, and Lehigh Valley had him closing this last season. Then he's got 2 pre-arb seasons, and an option. I'm guessing there's not too many of them on the market. 

47 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Bummer received a new contract which guaranteed him $13 million over the next two years.  His previous Sox contract was two non-guaranteed $7.25 and $7.5 million team options for 2025 and 2026 respectively, each with $1.25 million buyouts.

All Bummer was guaranteed after being a “corpse” last season was a $1.25 million buyout.  Instead, he got $13 million guaranteed.  Guaranteed money trumps team options with buyouts.  I’d say Bummer did pretty well for being a “corpse” last season.

As I said, club options with buyouts aren’t guaranteed money.  Moncada and Eloy can attest to this.  Neither is incentive-based money.  Unless you are Kenny Williams and truly think the Sox offered Machado the best contract.

But he took a haircut on team friendly, cheap option years. Let's not pretend he's last year's "It girl". Dude still gives up a lot of baserunners to be reliable. Riley Gowens, Shuster and Soroka were a good return for Bummer. 

5 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

We don't know he's just a "reliever to flip". He's got experience starting, and Lehigh Valley had him closing this last season. Then he's got 2 pre-arb seasons, and an option. I'm guessing there's not too many of them on the market. 

Potential starters cheaper than Bryse Wilson or Flexen?

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

But he took a haircut on team friendly, cheap option years. Let's not pretend he's last year's "It girl". Dude still gives up a lot of baserunners to be reliable. Riley Gowens, Shuster and Soroka were a good return for Bummer. 

Wasn't it a 5 player trade? There's someone missing from this list, I wonder why.

3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

But he took a haircut on team friendly, cheap option years. Let's not pretend he's last year's "It girl". Dude still gives up a lot of baserunners to be reliable. Riley Gowens, Shuster and Soroka were a good return for Bummer. 

Soroka signed a decent enough package with WAS that he should have been worth more than Clevinger at the deadline...ofc, Flexen didn't go anywhere, either.

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Wasn't it a 5 player trade? There's someone missing from this list, I wonder why.

Nick Lopez's veteran leadership and local connections were worth millions in marketing tie ins.

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Nick Lopez's veteran leadership and local connections were worth millions in marketing tie ins.

Awesome, since he was paid only $1 million, a couple million in marketing is a big gain. I'm not making any mistake here.

12 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

We don't know he's just a "reliever to flip". He's got experience starting, and Lehigh Valley had him closing this last season. Then he's got 2 pre-arb seasons, and an option. I'm guessing there's not too many of them on the market. 

He's a 31 year old journeyman who hasn't been able to stick in the majors and was going to be unemployed. There is a metric fuckton of them on the market.

9 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

But he took a haircut on team friendly, cheap option years. Let's not pretend he's last year's "It girl". Dude still gives up a lot of baserunners to be reliable. Riley Gowens, Shuster and Soroka were a good return for Bummer. 

But Bummer didn’t take a haircut.  Team options aren’t guaranteed money.  Like I said, did either Eloy or Moncada get theirs?  Robert won’t get his either if he keeps sucking like Eloy and Moncada.  Meanwhile, if Bummer was as bad as you and @PaleAleSox are saying, the Braves could have paid him $1.25 to go away.  Instead, they gave him $13 million guaranteed.

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Wasn't it a 5 player trade? There's someone missing from this list, I wonder why.

Because Lopez and Shewmake are a wash. Getz gobbled up a couple of guys who were going to be cut for the control. Adam Frazier got paid the same as Lopez and put up the same numbers. You win some, you lose some. I don't think Lopez and Shewmake detract, somehow, from getting Gowens, Shuster, and the right to take a shot on Soroka. 

57 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Bummer received a new contract which guaranteed him $13 million over the next two years.  His previous Sox contract was two non-guaranteed $7.25 and $7.5 million team options for 2025 and 2026 respectively, each with $1.25 million buyouts.

All Bummer was guaranteed after being a “corpse” last season was a $1.25 million buyout.  Instead, he got $13 million guaranteed.  Guaranteed money trumps team options with buyouts.  I’d say Bummer did pretty well for being a “corpse” last season.

As I said, club options with buyouts aren’t guaranteed money.  Moncada and Eloy can attest to this.  Neither is incentive-based money.  Unless you are Kenny Williams and truly think the Sox offered Machado the best contract.

He wasn't very good last year. I know you want to spin everything as a negative for Chris Getz, but this isn't some Kopech situation. It was crap for crap.

14 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Potential starters cheaper than Bryse Wilson or Flexen?

Wilson and Flexen weren't pre-arb, and have zero options. If there was somebody better in free agency, they would have signed him. 

10 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Because Lopez and Shewmake are a wash. Getz gobbled up a couple of guys who were going to be cut for the control. Adam Frazier got paid the same as Lopez and put up the same numbers. You win some, you lose some. I don't think Lopez and Shewmake detract, somehow, from getting Gowens, Shuster, and the right to take a shot on Soroka. 

Except Soroka wasn't going to make the Braves' roster...but the sure, all things considered, we guaranteed his services and salary for 2024, which worked out quite well for him getting even more from Washington for next season.  Maybe in AAA he doesn't get noticed or puts up Charlotte-inflated numbers.  Now his family's financial future is much more secure.

8 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

But Bummer didn’t take a haircut.  Team options aren’t guaranteed money.  Like I said, did either Eloy or Moncada get theirs?  Robert won’t get his either if he keeps sucking like Eloy and Moncada.  Meanwhile, if Bummer was as bad as you and @PaleAleSox are saying, the Braves could have paid him $1.25 to go away.  Instead, they gave him $13 million guaranteed.

You may think that the Braves guaranteeing some of Bummer's option money means that they made a great decision, and Bummer is the envy of the league. They also engineered that series of four trades to wind up with Jerod Kelenic, and David Fletcher. Not everything the Braves do is a signal to our feeble minds that they're playing 4-dimensional chess. 

Bummer is okay. They have a reliever for two years that may bounce back. We have a prospect arm, a long man, and had half a season of a good bullpen arm. If you want to crow about that one, have at it. 

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Except Soroka wasn't going to make the Braves' roster...but the sure, all things considered, we guaranteed his services and salary for 2024, which worked out quite well for him getting even more from Washington for next season.  Maybe in AAA he doesn't get noticed or puts up Charlotte-inflated numbers.  Now his family's financial future is much more secure.

Soroka's the same sitch as Gilbert. You don't know that 6 teams put claims on him. Or one. Getz and Bannister saw Soroka as part of their 3-headed project to rehab a starter. Oh yeah, gimme two of them, too, as long as you're throwing them away. 

5 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

You may think that the Braves guaranteeing some of Bummer's option money means that they made a great decision, and Bummer is the envy of the league. They also engineered that series of four trades to wind up with Jerod Kelenic, and David Fletcher. Not everything the Braves do is a signal to our feeble minds that they're playing 4-dimensional chess. 

Bummer is okay. They have a reliever for two years that may bounce back. We have a prospect arm, a long man, and had half a season of a good bullpen arm. If you want to crow about that one, have at it. 

Shuster is pretty much smoke and mirrors.  His stuff is trash and he walks far too many guys.  He was lucky to have an ERA under 5 last season.

10 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Shuster is pretty much smoke and mirrors.  His stuff is trash and he walks far too many guys.  He was lucky to have an ERA under 5 last season.

And Bummer gave up 5 BB/9 from 2020-2023. Oh, and Bummer's 31. He's old. I'll take Shuster and Gilbert. 

9 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

And Bummer gave up 5 BB/9 from 2020-2023. Oh, and Bummer's 31. He's old. I'll take Shuster and Gilbert. 

Do Shuster and Gilbert also strikeout 11 per 9 innings like Bummer?

Edited January 2, 20251 yr by WhiteSox2023

4 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Do Shuster and Gilbert also strikeout 11 per 9 innings like Bummer?

No, but they could still suck as bad as Bummer did, here. Bummer was ass, and it's a testament to how he tanked his own market value that nobody else would beat the offer you said was dumpster diving. Imagine the players other teams held onto, just so they could cut a week later, because they thought that was too much for Bummer. LOL. 

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Didn't we just have a whole thread about how there wasn't room in the bullpen?

Underrated response. 

11 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

No, but they could still suck as bad as Bummer did, here. Bummer was ass, and it's a testament to how he tanked his own market value that nobody else would beat the offer you said was dumpster diving. Imagine the players other teams held onto, just so they could cut a week later, because they thought that was too much for Bummer. LOL. 

We don’t know what the other offers were.  Getz thought he was getting back two rotation arms in Soroka and Shuster and a starting 2B in Lopez.  He was trying to fill out a rotation and lineup with cheap fliers [junk].  Perhaps another team was offering a couple prospects better than that 5 player “haul” that Getz got back.

Edited January 2, 20251 yr by WhiteSox2023