WhiteSox2023 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) 13 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Weird how you parrot the exact same deflection that your big buddy SS2k5 did. Of course they aren't. They're pre-arb, for heaven's sake. Fajardo and Combs are also no names who have barely thrown many innings. Booser and Gilbert are much closer to the bigs, and can be part of pro bullpen depth that will mitigate the bleeding for a rebuilding club. And if Getz signed a guy like Booser as a free agent, you'd post multiple times for days, mocking another dumpster dive. Any alternative you offer would be a logical argument if you hadn't already spent so much energy trashing it. Booser is turning 33 at the beginning of the season. How long do you think he’s going to be around, regardless of being pre-arb? Sox fans won’t remember these guys names in a year, which is why you would be wise to not hype up every mediocre-to-bad acquisition that Getz makes just like you did last year. Afterall, look at the very title of the thread we are posting in! 🤣 Edited February 10 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: For someone who likes to talk about people not answering your questions, you literally said nothing here that actually responded to the substance of what was ACTUALLY said. Oh sure, you made up things (again) that weren't actually said, and threw in a few more insults (again), but never actually addressed the actual response. I pretty much responded to your post, point by point. You don't want the Sox expending talent they control to shore up the major league bullpen. You say they already have what they're acquiring, and that more is available on the market for cheap. I believe they signed the guys they were interested in, and traded for guys who were DFAed that interested them. I don't see an actual question in your comment, so I'm not sure what else to respond to. I'm sorry my style of writing offends you. It seems to be an actual sticking point, where if I reference something I've been beaten over the head with, you become so distracted, you can't even follow a conversation. Now, I guess you'll get distracted by that sentence, and accuse me of whining about the environment here. All to avoid the simple question of whether losses matter or not. If they do, then Getz needs to shore up the major league bullpen. If they don't, then I'll be glad to never hear about 121 losses again. If both wins and development matter, then good for you, Getz is already multitasking that, some of which requires trading from depth to fill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) 21 minutes ago, WestEddy said: So then, I'll put you down in the "wins matter" column, which validates Getz's acquisition of major league bullpen depth pieces. I believe that when this team starts winning again, the fans will come back in throngs. You try to spin ridiculous things, and think your being clever. It isn't working. When the best you can do is the 10th pick in the draft, breaking the all time record for losses shouldn't be the plan. I'm glad youre not bothered by where the team is at, but the vast majority of fans are. Now they are practically giving tickets away, even for Opening Day. I believe the fanbase is being killed. Edited February 10 by Dick Allen 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 12 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Booser is turning 33 at the beginning of the season. How long do you think he’s going to be around, regardless of being pre-arb? Sox fans won’t remember these guys names in a year, which is why you would be wise to not hype up every mediocre-to-bad acquisition that Getz makes just like you did last year. Afterall, look at the very title of the thread we are posting in! 🤣 You really need to get beyond your Logan's Run complex. I would hope that Booser and Gilbert aren't around on August 1. Booser is a live lefty arm who has value, much more if they tweak him and he becomes even better than he was last year. I don't care who remembers what. Memorable names really isn't the goal here, is it? Creating value and bringing back prospects is. I'm not sure how it's "wise" to not talk about baseball players on a baseball forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 7 minutes ago, WestEddy said: I pretty much responded to your post, point by point. You don't want the Sox expending talent they control to shore up the major league bullpen. You say they already have what they're acquiring, and that more is available on the market for cheap. I believe they signed the guys they were interested in, and traded for guys who were DFAed that interested them. I don't see an actual question in your comment, so I'm not sure what else to respond to. I'm sorry my style of writing offends you. It seems to be an actual sticking point, where if I reference something I've been beaten over the head with, you become so distracted, you can't even follow a conversation. Now, I guess you'll get distracted by that sentence, and accuse me of whining about the environment here. All to avoid the simple question of whether losses matter or not. If they do, then Getz needs to shore up the major league bullpen. If they don't, then I'll be glad to never hear about 121 losses again. If both wins and development matter, then good for you, Getz is already multitasking that, some of which requires trading from depth to fill. So Getz is multitasking by DFA’ing a reliever he acquired just last year for yet another reliever he will likely DFA in a year or less? That’s some multitasking talent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) 8 minutes ago, WestEddy said: You really need to get beyond your Logan's Run complex. I would hope that Booser and Gilbert aren't around on August 1. Booser is a live lefty arm who has value, much more if they tweak him and he becomes even better than he was last year. I don't care who remembers what. Memorable names really isn't the goal here, is it? Creating value and bringing back prospects is. I'm not sure how it's "wise" to not talk about baseball players on a baseball forum. Obviously they won’t be remembered because they will be DFA just like Getz’s great acquisition of Steven Wilson. And Getz already gave up prospects for these guys! Are you forgetting that? So you need to factor in whom Getz gave up for these guys in any mediocre trade return that Getz gets for them. Edited February 10 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 5 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Obviously they won’t be remembered because they will be DFA just like Getz’s great acquisition of Steven Wilson. Anyone not buying into Chris Getz is a fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 20 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Why do you mention two acquisitions that no one ever claimed to be catastrophic, rather than the awful acquisitions of Fletcher and Vargas? The Fletcher trade wasn't "catastrophic" either. Yes, Getz has to start winning some of these inconsequential trades, but they hardly rise to the level of catastrophic. The jury's still out on Vargas. I've admitted that Getz got spun around and hoodwinked on the Fedde trade, which he can't allow to happen anymore. Chicago White Sox dude summed it up nicely that JR chose familiarity over experience, so there's going to be some growing pains. Additionally, we have no idea what info he was getting from a scouting department that he eventually cleaned out at the end of the year. People went on and on about Matt Thompson and Cristian Mena, like they were building blocks. They weren't. Mena was interesting, Thompson is a real estate salesman just waiting for his current career to finish up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 13 minutes ago, WestEddy said: I pretty much responded to your post, point by point. You don't want the Sox expending talent they control to shore up the major league bullpen. You say they already have what they're acquiring, and that more is available on the market for cheap. I believe they signed the guys they were interested in, and traded for guys who were DFAed that interested them. I don't see an actual question in your comment, so I'm not sure what else to respond to. I'm sorry my style of writing offends you. It seems to be an actual sticking point, where if I reference something I've been beaten over the head with, you become so distracted, you can't even follow a conversation. Now, I guess you'll get distracted by that sentence, and accuse me of whining about the environment here. All to avoid the simple question of whether losses matter or not. If they do, then Getz needs to shore up the major league bullpen. If they don't, then I'll be glad to never hear about 121 losses again. If both wins and development matter, then good for you, Getz is already multitasking that, some of which requires trading from depth to fill. If you STILL don't understand that were a team is starting from, which in this case is very literally 121 losses, is the starting point of how roster building for the current and future seasons should look. Expending future resources for a current season bullpen after a 121 win season is just ridiculous. And again, I will ignore you attempts at insults and whatever else made up stuff you are going to pull in here to distract from you ignoring the main irrefutable point, again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 13 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: You try to spin ridiculous things, and think your being clever. It isn't working. When the best you can do is the 10th pick in the draft, breaking the all time record for losses shouldn't be the plan. I'm glad youre not bothered by where the team is at, but the vast majority of fans are. Now they are practically giving tickets away, even for Opening Day. I believe the fanbase is being killed. That wasn't intended to be clever. The losses seem to matter to you. Getz is assembling bullpen depth that he didn't last year so that the bullpen isn't a sieve. I don't really think setting the loss record was a "plan". You guys keep bringing up picking no higher than 10th like there's some correct strategic planning that should have happened around that pick. They pick first in rounds 2-20. They picked first in the Rule 5 draft. They have first priority on waiver claims through opening day. The losses do bother me, and I have expressed that from time to time. There's a whole list of roster moves, trades, signings and such that I didn't like, and voiced it when they happened. I don't need to keep doing that on a daily basis, and express anger over them. It's done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 26 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Alienating a generation of fans tends to have a long lasting impact on a fanbase. I’m highly skeptical your last sentence is valid but, at this rate, we might not test this theory for another decade. Sox history shows that Sox fans are a highly mobile bunch of fair weather fans. I look at our attendance history and it's massive oscillations over time as proof. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 14 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: So Getz is multitasking by DFA’ing a reliever he acquired just last year for yet another reliever he will likely DFA in a year or less? That’s some multitasking talent! I don't see the problem in "trading" a guy who fell off the table because of an injury he wouldn't acknowledge (Wilson claimed his back injury wasn't what was affecting his bad numbers) for somebody he thinks has more potential. And if Wilson clears waivers, all the better. I'll repeat Dick Allen's line in that you're not being clever. This is a typical, end of the roster move that all teams make. It doesn't reflect on anybody except yourself when you pretend it has deeper meaning, and yet another example of how Getz sucks at his job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) 12 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Getz is assembling bullpen depth that he didn't last year so that the bullpen isn't a sieve. John Brebbia Tim Hill Chris Flexen Jared Shuster Alex Speas Justin Anderson Shane Drohan Bailey Horn Joe Barlow Jesse Chavez Brad Keller Corey Knebel Chad Kuhl Dominic Leone Bryan Shaw Edited February 10 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: If you STILL don't understand that were a team is starting from, which in this case is very literally 121 losses, is the starting point of how roster building for the current and future seasons should look. Expending future resources for a current season bullpen after a 121 win season is just ridiculous. And again, I will ignore you attempts at insults and whatever else made up stuff you are going to pull in here to distract from you ignoring the main irrefutable point, again. It is not ridiculous, for all the reasons I have given you. People here claim that 121 losses is fan-killing. (Auto-fill wanted to put in "fantastic".) If it is, then Getz needs to take care of an area that bled losses last year. He seems to feel he's doing that. Good for him, I'll wait to see if it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) 9 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: John Brebbia Tim Hill Chris Flexen Jared Shuster Alex Speas Shane Drohan Bailey Horn Joe Barlow Jesse Chavez Brad Keller Corey Knebel Chad Kuhl Dominic Leone Bryan Shaw Yes, those are player names. You pretty much called all those guys bums as soon as they were acquired, and hooted when I called that a shutdown bullpen. You laughed at the notion of Tim Hill realizing his ceiling from a couple years back, and voila, he did just that with the Yankees. Why don't you pull up your posts from then so we can both laugh at your lack of foresight together? And BTW, pretty much all those guys are still bouncing around the league, which tells me that other organizations see some potential in them. Funny, huh? Edited February 10 by WestEddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 22 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Anyone not buying into Chris Getz is a fool. Seriously, I don't want you to buy into Chris Getz. I've already said that. Please don't buy into Chris Getz. You can convey that by making actual arguments, not doing drive-by "I'm laughing at you and your posts" nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) 15 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Yes, those are player names. You pretty much called all those guys bums as soon as they were acquired, and hooted when I called that a shutdown bullpen. You laughed at the notion of Tim Hill realizing his ceiling from a couple years back, and voila, he did just that with the Yankees. Why don't you pull up your posts from then so we can both laugh at your lack of foresight together? And BTW, pretty much all those guys are still bouncing around the league, which tells me that other organizations see some potential in them. Funny, huh? I called the majority of them bums and you called them a shutdown bullpen. So who was right? Tim Hill sucked with the Sox to the point that Getz had to DFA him — a running theme with relievers he acquires (once again, refer to thread title). Hill pitching well for the Yankees doesn’t do a damn bit of good for the Sox. Those relievers still bouncing around the league just means that Getz didn’t keep the right ones. Funny how your point was that Getz is acquiring bullpen depth he didn’t have last year, considering he made 15+ reliever acquisitions last offseason. So what is different about this offseason? Getz failed with the bullpen last offseason but he has surely nailed it this offseason while acquiring even less relievers? Edited February 10 by WhiteSox2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 17 minutes ago, WestEddy said: That wasn't intended to be clever. The losses seem to matter to you. Getz is assembling bullpen depth that he didn't last year so that the bullpen isn't a sieve. I don't really think setting the loss record was a "plan". You guys keep bringing up picking no higher than 10th like there's some correct strategic planning that should have happened around that pick. They pick first in rounds 2-20. They picked first in the Rule 5 draft. They have first priority on waiver claims through opening day. The losses do bother me, and I have expressed that from time to time. There's a whole list of roster moves, trades, signings and such that I didn't like, and voiced it when they happened. I don't need to keep doing that on a daily basis, and express anger over them. It's done. This not being a part of the "plan" is quite literally the point. We are grinding up the roster for losing over 100 games again, and giving away future pieces again to do it, making it a realistic proposition that we are giving up pieces which could be actually giving up a piece or two that could be helping a team in the future, like we actually need. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 43 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: You try to spin ridiculous things, and think your being clever. It isn't working. When the best you can do is the 10th pick in the draft, breaking the all time record for losses shouldn't be the plan. I'm glad youre not bothered by where the team is at, but the vast majority of fans are. Now they are practically giving tickets away, even for Opening Day. I believe the fanbase is being killed. $4.63 a ticket, but aren’t they even cheaper on StubHub? 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 7 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: I called the majority of them bums and you called them a shutdown bullpen. So who was right? Funny how your point was that Getz is acquiring bullpen depth he didn’t have last year, considering he made 15 reliever acquisitions last offseason. So what is different about this offseason? Getz failed with the bullpen last offseason but he nailed it this offseason while acquiring even less relievers? We were both wrong. Your implication was that none of these players deserved major league innings because they all sucked, which you could tell, and they would never attain the numbers of a couple years ago. A small bunch of these guys actually did. You even mocked the notion that Fedde's experience in Korea was indicative of anything, that he was a bum, also. The "depth" he tried to create last year was in rehabbing closers and set-up guys. I thought that was an interesting idea, but it didn't work. I'm guessing timelines with deadlines, or maybe even players even forced the issue to get back on the FA market and not participate in the slaughter that was the 2024 bullpen. I don't think Getz "nailed" it this off-season. I've already said that he's assembling a group that can hit the ground running, instead of carrying 6 guys coming off of surgeries. He is also starting the year with at least 5 healthy starting pitchers who have has at least some little success in their current form. He started last year with 2 question marks in Crochet and Fedde, 2 rehab cases in Soroka and Flexen, and then a hodge podge of AAAA maybes in Nastrini, Clevenger, Shuster, Chad Kuhl, Woodbridge, etc. If the bullpen is exactly the same, they won't have as much put on them early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said: How do you feel about the Gene Watson hire? Not a huge fan of that one. 1 hour ago, Tnetennba said: Getz may have made some new hires that look good on paper. But it is too soon to know whether those hires actually can fix past organizational failings. Or if they will be allowed to. Those hires, however, do not overshadow Getz's management of the 40 man roster, which to this point borders on catastrophic. Chris Getz is the architect of the worst baseball team in the modern history of the sport, and one good trade does not make up for burning limited trade capital with very little to show for the return and burning millions of dollars in limited payroll on a 121 loss team. Catastrophic? How so? I kind of like the roster churn. It's something that KW and Hahn never did during the last rebuild. 1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said: The relievers Getz is acquiring aren’t worth $5 to $7 million dollar contracts. They are mostly no name guys that have barely thrown many innings. Getz could definitely afford to sign guys on the same level as Booser, Gilbert, and Eisert. They cost a couple million at most on the free agent market, not $5 to $7 million. They absolutely cannot "afford" to sign guys like that this year. They are spending what they're allowed to spend. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) 52 minutes ago, WestEddy said: That wasn't intended to be clever. The losses seem to matter to you. Getz is assembling bullpen depth that he didn't last year so that the bullpen isn't a sieve. I don't really think setting the loss record was a "plan". You guys keep bringing up picking no higher than 10th like there's some correct strategic planning that should have happened around that pick. They pick first in rounds 2-20. They picked first in the Rule 5 draft. They have first priority on waiver claims through opening day. The losses do bother me, and I have expressed that from time to time. There's a whole list of roster moves, trades, signings and such that I didn't like, and voiced it when they happened. I don't need to keep doing that on a daily basis, and express anger over them. It's done. You told us last year the bullpen was lockown. Now you tell us they have more pitching prospects than spots. See where people think youre full of it? Edited February 10 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, WestEddy said: It is not ridiculous, for all the reasons I have given you. People here claim that 121 losses is fan-killing. (Auto-fill wanted to put in "fantastic".) If it is, then Getz needs to take care of an area that bled losses last year. He seems to feel he's doing that. Good for him, I'll wait to see if it works. The damage is done. No difference between 100 or 120 losses in this coming year, the fan base has moved on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said: This is all fair. But one thing I will say is that we need to give Getz some time to develop into this role. You will never see me justify the hire, but the reality is once Jerry made the call to give a guy without the proper experience the job it was going to take some time to find his bearings. The Vargas trade is a perfect example of that. I think a first time GM without any veteran support and many moving pieces happening concurrently likely got played at the deadline in that deal. Mistakes like that can’t keep happening moving forward, but we also have to accept the fact that Getz is learning on the job because Jerry prioritized familiarity over experience. Will he get better? Probably and the Crochet deal looks more promising than his other deals, but just “better” may not be good enough. And right now, it’s totally fine to be skeptical because of Getz’s poor resume and lacking trade record so far. Hoping he develops into the role is a fair take all things considered. Whether he can or will is an unknown right now. He certainly hasn't earned it, but it's JR's playground where job accountability means little so we as fans have little alternative. I also think it is fair to hope for his improvement while also not ignoring the level to which his first year on the job set the org back. And his management of the 40 man roster has in fact set the org back. JR refusing to hold him accountable doesn't mean he is above criticism, or that fans should simply ignore his catastrophic failings in year one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 11 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: You told us last year the bullpen was lockown. Now you tell us they have more pitching prospects than spots. See where people think youre full of it? Nope. You're playing word games. You guys ask me a question, and I'll give you a full, good faith answer. I thought this board was a little more jokey when I amped up last winter. But apparently, me being light about the bullpen and "Nicky .300" really hurt some people. Here's a list of pitchers who could very well be vying for spots in the AAA rotation: Iriarte, Nastrini, Eder, W. Gonzalez, Ky Bush, Mason Adams, Justin Dunn, and Thorpe will probably rehab there. That's 8 starters. AA: Schultz, Tyler Schweitzer, Gowens, Juan Carella That's only 4, but maybe they get Adams back until the logjam at AAA clears. Some of the guys behind them will be pushing quickly. High-A: Hagen Smith, Grant Taylor, Tanner McDougal, Shane Murphy, Lucas Gordon, Tommy Vail, Aldrin Batista, Seth Keener, John Bockenstedt 9 guys. Some of these guys, like Bockenstedt might be bounced out or to the bullpen. But already, they're backing up. Batista is borderline AA. Hagen Smith will move quickly. There might be lingering injuries, but you see the jam forming. Low-A: Jake Peppers, Ricardo Brizuela, Carlton Perkins, Justin Sinibaldi You also have Christian Oppor, Mathias LaCombe, Blake Larson, Maximo Martinez. There's a couple more I'm not recognizing because of bad numbers, but they have stuff, and Getz still wants them. Some guys here will argue that we only really have 2-1/2 pitching prospects in the system. Schultz, Hagen Smith and Grant Taylor. But there's a whole slew of these guys who are actual prospects that need to throw innings every 5. I just listed 29 guys for 20-24 rotation spots. No, they're not all sexy, and some will be an easy call to toss in the bullpen. But you read and listen to the same stuff I do. To pretend that you don't know any of this is silly. We have a glut of pitching, and we'll be adding to it in this year's draft. So anybody thinking I'm "full of it" is just being argumentative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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