77 Hitmen Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said: Pirates weren't the only team doing that, Jeffrey Loria did the same thing with the Expos and then the Marlins. Owners want the players to solve their problems as Donald Fehr said back in the 94-95 time period. Agreed about Loria, the man who ruined the Expos franchise. Oh, and I forgot to include the 2006 Cardinals in the list of teams that have won the WS since the Marlins' last title. So, that's twice the Cardinals won it all in that timeframe, but they're one of the most successful teams in MLB history (only the Yankees have won more titles) with tons of fan support. But even they seem to be sliding into mediocrity in recent years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 29 Author Share Posted July 29 1 hour ago, 77 Hitmen said: Agreed about Loria, the man who ruined the Expos franchise. Oh, and I forgot to include the 2006 Cardinals in the list of teams that have won the WS since the Marlins' last title. So, that's twice the Cardinals won it all in that timeframe, but they're one of the most successful teams in MLB history (only the Yankees have won more titles) with tons of fan support. But even they seem to be sliding into mediocrity in recent years. Because despite having a rabid fan base and usually drawing very well, ownership has been cutting payroll and refuses to go after quality free agents. My broadcast partner is from the St. Louis area and he's furious at Cardinal ownership/management. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: The answer is a salary cap and a floor like every other sport. This current model is 100% broken and terrible even if some small market teams can be successful for stretches of time. Division leaders as of July 29th, 2025 AL East: Toronto (5th overall in payroll) AL Central: Detroit (17th overall in payroll) AL West: Astros (6th overall in payroll) NL East: Mets (2nd overall in payroll) NL Central: Brewers (24th overall in payroll) NL West: Dodgers (1st overall in payroll) That doesn't scream "broken" to me. Again, there are things that need to be fixed and adjusted, but a salary cap also isn't going to fix all of baseball's problems. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 29 Author Share Posted July 29 18 minutes ago, Tony said: Division leaders as of July 29th, 2025 AL East: Toronto (5th overall in payroll) AL Central: Detroit (17th overall in payroll) AL West: Astros (6th overall in payroll) NL East: Mets (2nd overall in payroll) NL Central: Brewers (24th overall in payroll) NL West: Dodgers (1st overall in payroll) That doesn't scream "broken" to me. Again, there are things that need to be fixed and adjusted, but a salary cap also isn't going to fix all of baseball's problems. Agreed. The vast majority of baseball's problems over the decades have been caused by incompetent owners who blame everything but their stupidity for their club issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 29 minutes ago, Tony said: Division leaders as of July 29th, 2025 AL East: Toronto (5th overall in payroll) AL Central: Detroit (17th overall in payroll) AL West: Astros (6th overall in payroll) NL East: Mets (2nd overall in payroll) NL Central: Brewers (24th overall in payroll) NL West: Dodgers (1st overall in payroll) That doesn't scream "broken" to me. Again, there are things that need to be fixed and adjusted, but a salary cap also isn't going to fix all of baseball's problems. Am I missing something? 4 of the 6 division leaders are high payroll, big market teams. The AL Central is all small/medium market teams (since the Sox operate like a small market team). Someone has to be in first there. If not the Tigers, then who? The Brewers are the only outlier as far as I can see. And look at who is in the lead for the wild card spots as of today: Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, Padres, Mariners. 5 of the 6 are high payroll and/or big market teams. Only Seattle isn't big market or big payroll....and they're only 1 game ahead of big market/big payroll Texas for a WC spot. And again, I agree this is an owners problem, not a players problem and just pushing a salary cap isn't the answer. But don't agree that there isn't a growing competitive balance problem in the league. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 44 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said: Am I missing something? 4 of the 6 division leaders are high payroll, big market teams. The AL Central is all small/medium market teams (since the Sox operate like a small market team). Someone has to be in first there. If not the Tigers, then who? The Brewers are the only outlier as far as I can see. And look at who is in the lead for the wild card spots as of today: Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, Padres, Mariners. 5 of the 6 are high payroll and/or big market teams. Only Seattle isn't big market or big payroll....and they're only 1 game ahead of big market/big payroll Texas for a WC spot. And again, I agree this is an owners problem, not a players problem and just pushing a salary cap isn't the answer. But don't agree that there isn't a growing competitive balance problem in the league. I think it looks the way it’s supposed to look. In most cases, good players cost more money. More good players = More wins. But I think we’re drifting from the main point. What problem are we trying to solve here? I think that needs to be identified first. Because we talk about small market teams not being able to compete. If MLB puts in a salary floor and cap…are the Pirates going to re-sign Paul Skeens then? I have serious doubts they invest that much in a player of that caliber. So it doesn’t help the Pirates, but it limits the suitors in the market for Skeens and a huge deal because of the cap, hurting the player. I understand the issue that we DO have the normal teams in FA that are always the big spenders and don’t seem to give any mid market team a shot….but I don’t think there is enough evidence to tell us a salary cap is going to dramatically change how the Pirates or Marlins operate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 To look at it another way, of the top 12 payroll teams, only the Braves and Diamondbacks are floundering. And for the Braves, this is after they've made the postseason 7 years in a row and the D-Back are only 2 years removed from winning the pennant. If you look at all the big market teams, the only ones who aren't making the playoffs on a regular basis are the White Sox and Angels. Perhaps the Cubs too over the last 4 years, but they seem to be back in playoff contention. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 12 minutes ago, Tony said: I think it looks the way it’s supposed to look. In most cases, good players cost more money. More good players = More wins. But I think we’re drifting from the main point. What problem are we trying to solve here? I think that needs to be identified first. Because we talk about small market teams not being able to compete. If MLB puts in a salary floor and cap…are the Pirates going to re-sign Paul Skeens then? I have serious doubts they invest that much in a player of that caliber. So it doesn’t help the Pirates, but it limits the suitors in the market for Skeens and a huge deal because of the cap, hurting the player. I understand the issue that we DO have the normal teams in FA that are always the big spenders and don’t seem to give any mid market team a shot….but I don’t think there is enough evidence to tell us a salary cap is going to dramatically change how the Pirates or Marlins operate I agree. I don't think we're that far off in our opinions. Bad ownership groups across the league are definitely a problem and Manfred just wants to go around trying to convince players that the salary cap cudgel will cure their problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 The Sox would benefit so much from a standard floor/ceiling that didn’t compensate by handing free draft picks and other team building gimmies to small market teams I just don’t know how Sox fans could be against it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 30 Author Share Posted July 30 3 hours ago, bmags said: The Sox would benefit so much from a standard floor/ceiling that didn’t compensate by handing free draft picks and other team building gimmies to small market teams I just don’t know how Sox fans could be against it. I'm not being flippant or sarcastic here when I say all the Sox franchise needs is Ishbia to take over and literally fire all the incompetence and rot on the baseball side of the operations...from the front office, to scouts, to talent evaluators to the medical, training and conditioning staffs. Then he needs to pay whatever it takes to bring in replacements from successful, winning organizations like the Dodgers, Braves, Brewers, Phillies, Yankees et al. Then stay the hell out of the way and let good people do what they were hired to do. Ishbia just needs to sign the checks, stay in the owners box and stay the hell out of the way (unlike JR who thinks he knows everything there is to know about things from "recommending" who the Sox should draft to having final approval on major trades/signings.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 (edited) Say whatever you want about the Padres and their future payroll obligations...but they have proven since 2019 that you can have a Bottom 3 media market and still have a consistent Top 3-5 team in attendance each and every season if you spend on some exciting players...despite inconsistency of playoff appearances. They have 3 post-seasons in 5 years and are in the cat bird's seat for now for 4/6. Does it only take great weather, a top stadium and a "ballpark village" to pull it off? And isn't that about as good as the Brewers Rays or any AL Central team could ever aspire to...? Or is it just un realistic to expect owners to go into "paper" debt? Was trying to find a past post and found this gem...oh for the so-called "life and death" problems of 2021 Sox baseball. Edited July 30 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdGen Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 10 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Say whatever you want about the Padres and their future payroll obligations...but they have proven since 2019 that you can have a Bottom 3 media market and still have a consistent Top 3-5 team in attendance each and every season if you spend on some exciting players...despite inconsistency of playoff appearances. They have 3 post-seasons in 5 years and are in the cat bird's seat for now for 4/6. Does it only take great weather, a top stadium and a "ballpark village" to pull it off? And isn't that about as good as the Brewers Rays or any AL Central team could ever aspire to...? Or is it just un realistic to expect owners to go into "paper" debt? Was trying to find a past post and found this gem...oh for the so-called "life and death" problems of 2021 Sox baseball. While it is a small media market they have the advantage of having been the only major league team in that market. They did add a MLS team a couple of months ago, yet to see how they draw long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 (edited) 11 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Say whatever you want about the Padres and their future payroll obligations...but they have proven since 2019 that you can have a Bottom 3 media market and still have a consistent Top 3-5 team in attendance each and every season if you spend on some exciting players...despite inconsistency of playoff appearances. They have 3 post-seasons in 5 years and are in the cat bird's seat for now for 4/6. Does it only take great weather, a top stadium and a "ballpark village" to pull it off? And isn't that about as good as the Brewers Rays or any AL Central team could ever aspire to...? Or is it just un realistic to expect owners to go into "paper" debt? 1 hour ago, ThirdGen said: While it is a small media market they have the advantage of having been the only major league team in that market. They did add a MLS team a couple of months ago, yet to see how they draw long term. The Padres are an interesting, perhaps unique, case. Metro area population is middle of the pack, but interesting that it's media market is bottom 3. As you said, they get big attendance numbers (3M/year since Covid). Even when they were mediocre in the years before Covid, they drew well. Yeah, great weather and beautiful ballpark at a great location must help. Any Sox fan who says Rate Field is "just fine" should go to a stadium like Petco Park. And yes, San Diego is the only city with a MLB team and no other teams from the other major sports leagues. It'd be like if Chicago had the White Sox, but no Cubs, Bears, Bulls, and Blackhawks. Edited July 30 by 77 Hitmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 12 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: I'm not being flippant or sarcastic here when I say all the Sox franchise needs is Ishbia to take over and literally fire all the incompetence and rot on the baseball side of the operations...from the front office, to scouts, to talent evaluators to the medical, training and conditioning staffs. Then he needs to pay whatever it takes to bring in replacements from successful, winning organizations like the Dodgers, Braves, Brewers, Phillies, Yankees et al. Then stay the hell out of the way and let good people do what they were hired to do. Ishbia just needs to sign the checks, stay in the owners box and stay the hell out of the way (unlike JR who thinks he knows everything there is to know about things from "recommending" who the Sox should draft to having final approval on major trades/signings.) Bingo. Everyone in the organization above Southpaw should be worried about their jobs if he starts holding people accountable when he finally takes over. Too bad we have to wait until at least 2029 to find out if that'll happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdGen Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 21 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said: The Padres are an interesting, perhaps unique, case. Metro area population is middle of the pack, but interesting that it's media market is bottom 3. As you said, they get big attendance numbers (3M/year since Covid). Even when they were mediocre in the years before Covid, they drew well. Yeah, great weather and beautiful ballpark at a great location must help. Any Sox fan who says Rate Field is "just fine" should go to a stadium like Petco Park. And yes, San Diego is the only city with a MLB team and no other teams from the other major sports leagues. It'd be like if Chicago had the White Sox, but no Cubs, Bears, Bulls, and Blackhawks. What stood out to me when I visited Petco a couple of years ago, aside from how nice the stadium, is how incredible friendly and efficient the employees were. Without being asked they suggested a kids area my kids might enjoy, and gave me a great overview of food and drink options. No long concession lines despite a full house, friendly employees everywhere. Exact opposite of the current Sox experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 30 Author Share Posted July 30 https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6523710/2025/07/30/mlb-salary-cap-curt-flood-legacy-rob-manfred/?campaign=14409989&source=athletic_targeted_email&userId=602876 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 14 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: I'm not being flippant or sarcastic here when I say all the Sox franchise needs is Ishbia to take over and literally fire all the incompetence and rot on the baseball side of the operations...from the front office, to scouts, to talent evaluators to the medical, training and conditioning staffs. Then he needs to pay whatever it takes to bring in replacements from successful, winning organizations like the Dodgers, Braves, Brewers, Phillies, Yankees et al. Then stay the hell out of the way and let good people do what they were hired to do. Ishbia just needs to sign the checks, stay in the owners box and stay the hell out of the way (unlike JR who thinks he knows everything there is to know about things from "recommending" who the Sox should draft to having final approval on major trades/signings.) I don't think Ishbia is a stay out of the way type of owner. I know his brother is the primary in Phoenix but look what the group did there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 (edited) 1 hour ago, ThirdGen said: What stood out to me when I visited Petco a couple of years ago, aside from how nice the stadium, is how incredible friendly and efficient the employees were. Without being asked they suggested a kids area my kids might enjoy, and gave me a great overview of food and drink options. No long concession lines despite a full house, friendly employees everywhere. Exact opposite of the current Sox experience. It's been a few years since I've been to Rate Field, but my experience has always been that the service at the concessions are sooooo slooooowwww! People shouldn't underestimate how much the entire gameday experience (including before and after the game) impacts how many people a team can get to show up. It's not just as simple as fielding a winning time while providing a mediocre experience at the ballpark anymore. Maybe that worked 30 years ago, but not today. The whole Petco experience for me felt like it was on an entirely different level than what I experience at Rate Field with the only downside is that my favorite team wasn't playing. Edited July 30 by 77 Hitmen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 30 Author Share Posted July 30 50 minutes ago, ptatc said: I don't think Ishbia is a stay out of the way type of owner. I know his brother is the primary in Phoenix but look what the group did there. He can't be any worse than JR interfering in areas he has no expertise in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said: He can't be any worse than JR interfering in areas he has no expertise in. I guess we'll see. They actually own the team so that's up to them. Most fan bases say the same thing about owners. I dont think there are that many hands off owners. Some just are willing to spend into debt than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox guy Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 On 7/17/2025 at 10:21 AM, kitekrazy said: AN opportunity for the WNBA to become more popular than MLB I became a fan because of Caitlin Clark, but then I saw how dreadful the level of play was. No thanks. and they all want raises too. They're lucky the nba props them up. Without them, the league wouldn't exist. as far as a 2027 labor stoppage goes, I do think the Sox will be good by then, so I hope things can be worked out. I wasn't too much of a fan in 94, so I didn't really care about the wasted opportunity at the time, but now it's excruciatingly painful to see what might have been. IMO, 1994 hurt us more than any other team, even more than the Spos. I think we'd have won the pennant at minimum, probably the whole thing. That year had a good ad campaign too, featuring Jim McMahon and MJ. But it was all for naught 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted August 4 Author Share Posted August 4 1 hour ago, Sox guy said: I became a fan because of Caitlin Clark, but then I saw how dreadful the level of play was. No thanks. and they all want raises too. They're lucky the nba props them up. Without them, the league wouldn't exist. as far as a 2027 labor stoppage goes, I do think the Sox will be good by then, so I hope things can be worked out. I wasn't too much of a fan in 94, so I didn't really care about the wasted opportunity at the time, but now it's excruciatingly painful to see what might have been. IMO, 1994 hurt us more than any other team, even more than the Spos. I think we'd have won the pennant at minimum, probably the whole thing. That year had a good ad campaign too, featuring Jim McMahon and MJ. But it was all for naught It was the "Good guys wear black" ad campaign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 This article from June includes a players survey on which organizations have good reputations and which ones have bad reputations. https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6406636/2025/06/11/best-worst-mlb-manager-2025-player-poll/ Of the top 14 best ranked organizations, all but two are large market teams. The only exceptions to it otherwise being all big market teams are the Guardians and Rays. Among the bottom 16 teams, the only large market teams are the Angels and White Sox. And we all know that Reinsdorf has been running the Sox like they're a small market team for years now. The Nationals and Diamondbacks are in the lower half, but are basically neutral in this survey (one good vote for the D-Backs and one bad vote for the Nats). What struck me is how, with only a very few exceptions, this list splits out almost perfectly between big market and small market teams. Do people believe that nearly all the bad owners just happen to be in small markets while nearly all the good owners are in big markets with lots of revenue streams coming in? Of course there are a small handful of exceptions like how JR has run our favorite franchise into the ground, how the Angels are a mess, and how the Rays almost always overachieve. That doesn't mean I support a salary cap, though. This is the owners' problem, not a players' problem. But the competitive balance issue is real. Unfortunately, it seems like Manfred is intent on using a salary cap to fix their mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: It was the "Good guys wear black" ad campaign. That was a great ad campaign and great slogan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox guy Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 On 8/4/2025 at 11:14 AM, Lip Man 1 said: It was the "Good guys wear black" ad campaign. Yup, which they should have returned to when they ran out of ideas, which was often. Here are all the ad campaigns I remember, if anyone knows of any others, please add: The stars at night. Winning ugly. The Hawk wants you! Chicago's american pastime. The last season in historic Comiskey Park, years from now, you'll say you were there. Good guys wear black. The kids can play. It's Time. Sox Pride. Grinderball rules. We are Chicago baseball. South Side Board of Tourism. Show the Swagger. It's black and it's white. all in. Rooted in history. Many good commercials, but some duds. Good ones include when Mayor Daley was in the stands, telling Guillen what to do. Or Nick Swisher with a sign on the field, acting goofy. Dud, IMO, was when Paulie said he could read Shingo's mind, but all he did was know Japanese. The joke flopped. But the goat Sox commercial, and IMO one of the best sports commercials ever (up there with the NJ Devil in elevator), was when a nun strayed from the other nuns in the convent, to go read her Bible in privacy. But instead, she had a radio in there tuned into the Sox game on 670. I'm chuckling just remembering it, a classic. Gold standard IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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