Sox, Cubs, Brewers, Twins paired together in future?

[chitownsportsfan]

I'd be fine just doing away with the leagues. With the universal DH everything is the same anyways. Not sure I see any compelling reason this needs to be done however, the divisions seem fine imo.

[Bob Sacamano]

16 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

I like the idea of the Cubs and Sox (as well as Yankees/Mets and Dodgers/Angels) having their own set of regional rivals and not just sharing the same two other teams as rivals.  Group us with Milwaukee and St. Louis and that leaves Detroit and Minnesota out in the cold.

Long-term, one concern is that having both Chicago teams lumped in the same division would make the White Sox seem superfluous to the Cubs as far has having a MLB presence in Chicago.  Chicago is not a 2-team city like NY or LA (which have 2 teams in each of the major sports).  We have 2 MLB teams only because it's relic of a bygone era.   To make matters worse, we have one MLB team that always draws well through good seasons and bad and another team that always seems to struggle to draw fans unless they win the World Series.  

I would argue that Cubs only draw so well due to location. Being in the middle of a bunch of bars.

[Tnetennba]

20 hours ago, 77 Hitmen said:

I expect him to put an expansion team in Salt Lake City since Utah is offering $900M in public funding for a new stadium, even though it's only the 46th largest metro area in the US. 

Wouldn’t surprise me in the least. Good luck trying to ever sign a big FA or retaining their own players. Or drawing crowds 81 dates a year. 

[Tnetennba]

14 hours ago, 77 Hitmen said:

If Manfred & Co. come to their senses and keep the AL and NL and they expand to 32, here's one possible idea of how to create 4-team divisions that have reasonable geography:

American League
West:  Seattle, LA Angels, Las Vegas, Portland (expansion)
South Central(?):  Texas, Houston, KC, Colorado (moved to AL)
Central:  Sox, Detroit, Minnesota, Cleveland
East:  NYY, Boston, Toronto, Baltimore

National League
West:  SF, LAD, SD, AZ
South:  TB (moved to NL), Miami, Atlanta, Nashville/Charlotte (expansion)
Central:  Cubs, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Cincy
East:  NYM, Philly, Washington, Pittsburgh

 

 

 

This makes a ton of sense, which means it won’t happen and we’ll get something far more asinine. 

[wegner]

2 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Wouldn’t surprise me in the least. Good luck trying to ever sign a big FA or retaining their own players. Or drawing crowds 81 dates a year. 

Sounds like the Salt Lake City White Sox

[Bob Sacamano]

5 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Wouldn’t surprise me in the least. Good luck trying to ever sign a big FA or retaining their own players. Or drawing crowds 81 dates a year. 

I mean there's plenty of teams who constantly sell their own, I guess you could add them to it,

[Tnetennba]

1 minute ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I mean there's plenty of teams who constantly sell their own, I guess you could add them to it,

True, but circumstance of a cheap owner is a bit different than putting a team in a  small town knowing full well it’s one of the last places in the continental US players would want to sign, or re-sign. 

[caulfield12]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/article/rob-manfred-radical-mlb-realignment-014102687.html

[77 Hitmen]

 

2 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I would argue that Cubs only draw so well due to location. Being in the middle of a bunch of bars.

No doubt about it.  And guess which ballpark Brewers and Cardinals fans are going to want to visit when their team comes to Chicago?  Plus, thanks to their WGN superstation history, the Cubs have a huge following in the Midwest outside of Chicagoland and the Sox most certainly do not.

Maybe if Ishbia decides to bankroll a new stadium at the 78, the Sox will have a fighting chance to draw well during times that they aren't winning pennants and to build a broader fan base, but we have a whole other thread discussing that.

Regardless, I'm very strongly against abolishing the AL and NL and lumping the Cubs and Sox into the same division.

Edited August 19 by 77 Hitmen

[reiks12]

Losing the AL and NL would be a big mistake, and having the Cubs and Sox in the same division would be too much for the city to handle (same for Yanks/Mets). Its just not necessary.

[nrockway]

3 hours ago, Quin said:

Cause you're telling us — not opining — that the game will be exciting and have more hits if objectively worse hitters are put in the game, robbing fans of a better experience.

Welp, everything I wrote in this thread is absolutely an opinion. One "tells" opinions just as one "tells" facts. "Telling" and "opining" are not opposites. They're related in the sense that both are verbs and they communicate a thought. Interestingly, I'm not sure if there's a verb form of "fact" like there is with "opinion". I'm also functionally illiterate and I don't know many words, but I know the difference between a fact and an opinion. Evidently many do not. Facts are, like, you know, things that aren't disputable. "X player has Z batting average" is a fact. "On August 18, 2026, The Chicago White Sox beat the Atlanta Braves 13-9" is a fact. "Batting average is more important than OBP" is an opinion that might also be a fact. That's a little more challenging. I read a great article with statistical evidence as to why it might be true. It's a worthy discussion. "I like the strategic aspects of pinch hitting for a pitcher" is an opinion.  "I don't like the designated hitter for xyz reason" is clearly an opinion.

I also definitely did not write "worse hitters make the game more exciting." It's a total misrepresentation. I don't know if the misrepresentation is willful or what, but it's annoying and rude. Your opinion is "it robs fans of a better experience", a fair perspective to have, if you think it robs you of a better experience. You're entitled to your opinion and I respect it. I think it is bombastic language though that I wouldn't use, I'm saying, "this is what I think, some people agree with me". Much less rhetorical. I'm not winning any presidential elections talking like that. Never gonna be a TikTok influencer, alas. It isn't the intention to offend you, seemingly you took it personally because somebody has a different opinion than you, and I try to write in such a way that doesn't make it personal. I wish other people felt and wrote the same way and weren't offended by differing perspectives.  Seems like bad argumentation too. I wrote a bunch of reasons why I dislike the DH and nobody actually replied to it. Talked past it. It's a bully tendency. I don't even care, really, but I care about people being internet bullies...which is a lot of people on this forum for whatever reason. It's quite a hostile place. Was it less hostile when the team was good? I haven't been posting here very long.

In your post, you are hung up something I simply didn't write. I said I like the strategic aspects of potentially pinch hitting for a pitcher who is having a good game. It makes the manager a relevant factor in the outcome of ballgames. I think if you watch baseball to see home runs, you're gonna have a bad time. Go watch a more action-packed sport. Basketball is a fun sport to watch and there's a lot of scoring. My opinion is that pitching is what makes baseball a sport worth watching. The physics and metaphysics behind it is very cool. My opinion is that a baseball player should have to play both offense and defense. I think, like I said, extending players' careers is a good argument in favor of your opinion that the DH is worthwhile. People made fun of me without actually addressing the argument though. Make it personal. I elaborated on it anyway that clearly there is no logical connection between a bad hitter in the lineup and more hits...

Could also reply to the actual point if you really wanted instead of, ya know, putting words in my mouth. My words are written down, you can go back and look at them. Or not, because again, you know, who gives a s%*#, I'm not replying to this thread anymore. It's not like it's a wild perspective that people preferred NL baseball to the AL though. I already stated my perspective on standardization. It's boring in every fucking field, specifically art and literature, not just sports. Outdoor baseball is fun because the playing conditions are never the same. Playing inside a dome in climate-controlled conditions is not much fun. It's sterile. It's bad architecture too. That's an opinion by the way. You are welcome to disagree, it's a free country, it's no skin off my back, it has no bearing on the outcome of either one of our lives. Watching baseball and playing in a beer league is a fun, almost childish hobby. Getting offended over it is sort of wild to me.

[southsider2k5]

42 minutes ago, nrockway said:

Welp, everything I wrote in this thread is absolutely an opinion. One "tells" opinions just as one "tells" facts. "Telling" and "opining" are not opposites. They're related in the sense that both are verbs and they communicate a thought. Interestingly, I'm not sure if there's a verb form of "fact" like there is with "opinion". I'm also functionally illiterate and I don't know many words, but I know the difference between a fact and an opinion. Evidently many do not. Facts are, like, you know, things that aren't disputable. "X player has Z batting average" is a fact. "On August 18, 2026, The Chicago White Sox beat the Atlanta Braves 13-9" is a fact. "Batting average is more important than OBP" is an opinion that might also be a fact. That's a little more challenging. I read a great article with statistical evidence as to why it might be true. It's a worthy discussion. "I like the strategic aspects of pinch hitting for a pitcher" is an opinion.  "I don't like the designated hitter for xyz reason" is clearly an opinion.

I also definitely did not write "worse hitters make the game more exciting." It's a total misrepresentation. I don't know if the misrepresentation is willful or what, but it's annoying and rude. Your opinion is "it robs fans of a better experience", a fair perspective to have, if you think it robs you of a better experience. You're entitled to your opinion and I respect it. I think it is bombastic language though that I wouldn't use, I'm saying, "this is what I think, some people agree with me". Much less rhetorical. I'm not winning any presidential elections talking like that. Never gonna be a TikTok influencer, alas. It isn't the intention to offend you, seemingly you took it personally because somebody has a different opinion than you, and I try to write in such a way that doesn't make it personal. I wish other people felt and wrote the same way and weren't offended by differing perspectives.  Seems like bad argumentation too. I wrote a bunch of reasons why I dislike the DH and nobody actually replied to it. Talked past it. It's a bully tendency. I don't even care, really, but I care about people being internet bullies...which is a lot of people on this forum for whatever reason. It's quite a hostile place. Was it less hostile when the team was good? I haven't been posting here very long.

In your post, you are hung up something I simply didn't write. I said I like the strategic aspects of potentially pinch hitting for a pitcher who is having a good game. It makes the manager a relevant factor in the outcome of ballgames. I think if you watch baseball to see home runs, you're gonna have a bad time. Go watch a more action-packed sport. Basketball is a fun sport to watch and there's a lot of scoring. My opinion is that pitching is what makes baseball a sport worth watching. The physics and metaphysics behind it is very cool. My opinion is that a baseball player should have to play both offense and defense. I think, like I said, extending players' careers is a good argument in favor of your opinion that the DH is worthwhile. People made fun of me without actually addressing the argument though. Make it personal. I elaborated on it anyway that clearly there is no logical connection between a bad hitter in the lineup and more hits...

Could also reply to the actual point if you really wanted instead of, ya know, putting words in my mouth. My words are written down, you can go back and look at them. Or not, because again, you know, who gives a s%*#, I'm not replying to this thread anymore. It's not like it's a wild perspective that people preferred NL baseball to the AL though. I already stated my perspective on standardization. It's boring in every fucking field, specifically art and literature, not just sports. Outdoor baseball is fun because the playing conditions are never the same. Playing inside a dome in climate-controlled conditions is not much fun. It's sterile. It's bad architecture too. That's an opinion by the way. You are welcome to disagree, it's a free country, it's no skin off my back, it has no bearing on the outcome of either one of our lives. Watching baseball and playing in a beer league is a fun, almost childish hobby. Getting offended over it is sort of wild to me.

Calling people names because they disagreed with you opinion is the definition of being offended. 

In general I am not sure when discussion boards turned into somewhere that people take it personally when their opinions aren't parrotted back at them, but apparently that's where Soxtalk is now too.  Honestly it's depressing because the give and take here was always the best, but it seems like these days people take disagreements personally. 

[caulfield12]

You have the obvious arguments about watching guys like Baines Frank Thomas Edgar Martinez David Ortiz Manny Ramirez ARod Pujols in the second halves of their careers.

Pitchers getting hurt on basepaths or hbp is a real concern in the days of $300+ million contracts.

Guys like TLR really slowed the game down to a crawl in StL with all te double switches.  Generally better to make the game more fast paced...although that's mitigated to an extent by today's bullpen specialization trend.

[caulfield12]

44 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Calling people names because they disagreed with you opinion is the definition of being offended. 

In general I am not sure when discussion boards turned into somewhere that people take it personally when their opinions aren't parrotted back at them, but apparently that's where Soxtalk is now too.  Honestly it's depressing because the give and take here was always the best, but it seems like these days people take disagreements personally. 

Part of it's related to political polarization the last two decades.

Not being able to separate posters' political views with their sports opinions.

Sox being so terrible makes it a convenient place to take out frustration with the team/owner/GM on other more conveniently available people...such as posters here.

The mods by and large have less time for the Sox compared to let's say 2019-2021 and there's almost nobody left willing to consistently defend the team but 2-3 posters...the era of healthy, two sided debates ended with Hahn/KW and Getz replacing them.  So you get a slew of repetitive arguments and what amounts to an echo chamber.

Most positivity is related to the minors, where optimism is eternal.  That said, falling so quickly from Top 4-6 to 16-20 and the setbacks from Smith and Schultz (and Taylor) have really been damaging body blows.

It feels like we have to either wait for Jerry to die or not care much about the team until around 2028/29...that's a lot of time to invest after the limited returns of waiting from 2008 all the way until the two playoff seasons that ended so disappointingly.

Just a lot of frustration and wondering whether the Sox are even worth it anymore when the owner barely seems to care about anything other than begging for public funding for a stadium yet again.

Winning actually fixes a lot of the issues, though.

[Lip Man 1]

Saw where Manfred was quoted as saying this would help via travel and by proxy help keep players healthy.

There may be some truth to this, don't know, given that teams have private charter jets, not like they are standing in line waiting to board or having to cram into coach seats. 

[greg775]

Will we go to playing the Cubs 20 times? That's ridiculous. I thought baseball fixed this realizing it was a mistake to have the Sox play KC 19 times a season (by the way I was right about the Sox again turning KC's season around; they now are locks for the wildcard and mite even win the division after boatracing the Sox and regaining swag). If the Sox are gonna be in the same division as the Cubs just have them break away from MLB and play each other 150 times a spring/summer. Dumb decision Manfred.

[greg775]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Not being able to separate posters' political views with their sports opinions.

The mods do a good job of preventing talk about politics. Trust me, they do. For instance as you know I have some opinions about my hometown of Chicago. I DO NOT dare speak about such concerns/issues as I still fear the mods sending me on a six-month vacation from here for talking politics. They are all over putting a stop to non baseball talk Caulfield.

[pcq]

Wow exciting new divisionzzzzz

Writing long screeds on CubSox. No one cares any more. The Cub and their crew are boring. 

[greg775]

23 hours ago, nrockway said:

Just do away with divisions entirely and make the pitcher hit again...in both leagues. 

Cubs and Sox in the same division/league would be horrible.

No on the pitchers hitting again. That automatic out is important in games where the pitcher hits. Agree on Cubs/Sox. Will be the end of baseball interest in Chicago. Cubs fans don't want to play us; and we don't need to play the Cubs. Yuck.

[greg775]

Salt Lake is an underrated town. I like it. However they'll need a retractable roof. For sure.

[pcq]

Would only play the Cub at Cominskey. Too many dbags up north. Manfred is a Sears tool.   

[Lip Man 1]

18 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Will we go to playing the Cubs 20 times? That's ridiculous. I thought baseball fixed this realizing it was a mistake to have the Sox play KC 19 times a season (by the way I was right about the Sox again turning KC's season around; they now are locks for the wildcard and mite even win the division after boatracing the Sox and regaining swag). If the Sox are gonna be in the same division as the Cubs just have them break away from MLB and play each other 150 times a spring/summer. Dumb decision Manfred.

I don't think anyone is talking about 20 times, haven't seen that number tossed around. More like 12. 

[Lip Man 1]

19 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Will we go to playing the Cubs 20 times? That's ridiculous. I thought baseball fixed this realizing it was a mistake to have the Sox play KC 19 times a season (by the way I was right about the Sox again turning KC's season around; they now are locks for the wildcard and mite even win the division after boatracing the Sox and regaining swag). If the Sox are gonna be in the same division as the Cubs just have them break away from MLB and play each other 150 times a spring/summer. Dumb decision Manfred.

Not even close. 

[77 Hitmen]

24 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Saw where Manfred was quoted as saying this would help via travel and by proxy help keep players healthy.

There may be some truth to this, don't know, given that teams have private charter jets, not like they are standing in line waiting to board or having to cram into coach seats. 

Don't give Jerry any ideas.

 

[MEANS]

Is there one proposal or is every media outlet proposing their own? I saw one with the Sox in the NL with Cubs/Cards/Cincy. Think it was Fox sports or something. It did have Portland as an expansion team so I would like that at least.