Can you say with a straight face W/L is the best measurement for a pitchers success.

Means just about nothing.

No, you're missing the point. 

I think you are missing the point. Win/lose record has no bearing if you put up other solid numbers. With solid numbers, your W/L basically depends on your run support.

 

 

And its no like run support has any thing to do with him and run support will possibly change dramatically when you switch teams, depending on the offense.

 

I mean, its not like our players are going to go out there and say "You know what, Matt is pitching today, and frankly, I don't feel like hitting so I'll just take a lesson from the Cubs and go 0-4 with 3 K's.

Well, if we're not going to give our pitchers a lot of run support, I'd rather have a guy like Clement who can shut down the opposition than someone like Schoeneweis or Grilli who you are happy with if they give up 4 runs in 6 innings.

Loaiza won 10 games.

Clement won 9 games.

 

Whose the better pitcher?

Clement is obviously better. He is definitely not a $10 mil pitcher, more like 7 or 8, but unfortunately supply and demand says he is. The bigger picture for me is that I just want to see some sort of committment to winning. Clement WOULD improve our team by a lot. I need this.

Might I remind you the SOX have NEVER won a bidding war for a FA. Ever.

This smells so much like the A-Rod fiasco where the SOX were used to grab the highest bidders.

 

If the CWS is offering 30/3, then I am sure it's either heavily deferred or has strings attached. Yes he pitched at Wrigley Field & that's a plus but he also pitched vs the NLC & that's a big minus. The NLC has two of the worst offenses in baseball in the Pirates & Brewers. Add to that fact that the 7-8-9 hitters avg an OPS that is 200 pts less than in the AL & I just don't see a 30/3 AL pitcher in Matt Clement.

 

In contrast look at Odalis Perez. He's got better stuff, can be had for 1/2 that price & has pitched in the NLW which has featured some of the best offensive teams in the NL.

I do see a 15/3 AL pitcher in Odalis Perez.

Were they the only team bidding for Belle?

Loaiza won 10 games.

Clement won 9 games.

 

Whose the better pitcher?

Johnson won 16 games

 

Clement won 9 games

 

Who's pitched better? Or do we need to look at their run support first?

 

This whole arguement is much more amusing when it Scrubs fans:

 

Obviously Kerry f***ing Wood is a better pitcher than Buehrle, just look at their stats.

 

Obviously Matt f***ing Clement is a better pitcher than Buehrle, just look at their stats.

 

Yada Yada Yada

Has this run support problem been an issue for Clement his entire career? He is 69-75 lifetime.

The Score just reported that clement will make his decision in the next few days and that the sox will not be involved in the bidding,since it has gone up to 8 mil a season. isnt this the same station who said we matched a ten mil a year deal???

:fyou

But Perez isn't gonna go for half the price. If its up to 10 for Clement, I would give Perez 7 today to get it done before Clement signs.

This team drives me crazy

I just don't see the Sox getting their starter at this point because you would think the loser of the Clement bidding will out bid the Sox for Perez. RJ isn't coming here, and Hudson is already off the market. I know KW and JR have tried to backtrack a little on the Boras comments, but I don't see Millwood or Lowe here, and how quality of a signing would Milton be?

 

I think they should try to get a C and 2b....

In contrast look at Odalis Perez.  He's got better stuff, can be had for 1/2 that price & has pitched in the NLW which has featured some of the best offensive teams in the NL.

I do see a 15/3 AL pitcher in Odalis Perez.

Expecting Odalis Perez for any price under 7 million is naive.

 

Following Clements signing attention will shift towards Perez. Another bidding war ultimately begins, and another team will overpay for his services.

 

We'll see how everyone feels about overpaying for Clement/Perez mid-year when Vazquez is serving up HR's every start and retread 5th starter is pitching with a 5.00ERA. Only forseable benefit of ignoring Clement/Perez discussions is to upgrade the lineup. AJ, Polanco, 5th starter would earn my approval. However, Sox must act quickly if bidding falls through for either starting pitcher.

 

I believe it's a very simple option: overpay with money, or overpay with talent/prospects. Decide to acquire Johnson? You're forsaking a considerable portion of your future for two years. Decide to sign Clement? You're overpaying for a #3 starter whom endured a sharp dropoff second half of last season. I'd rather have Perez over Clement, but if Clement were to be signed for 10 million (which I still can't believe the Sox are offering) I'll accept it. Personally, even for Randy Johnson, trading several key role players and prospects upsets me. It may be the nature of our organization to avoid paying high salaries to FA's and forsake our farm system, but for once the White Sox are offering the money and we're complaining of overpaying.

The Score just reported that clement will make his decision in the next few days and that the sox will not be involved in the bidding,since it has gone up to 8 mil a season. isnt this the same station who said we matched a ten mil a year deal???

:fyou

If that's true then that's terrible. I'd really like to get Clement, whether we overpay or not. As long as John Garland is pushed to the #5 spot (and Contreras to #4) for the 05 starting rotation than I'm a happy White Sox fan.

I have a sick feeling right now that KW is not going to spend the money that was saved in the Carlos trade. Rather, a thought that has bothered me is that the Sox were over budget before the trade, and the move was made to get back within budget. The Sox would never come out and say they needed to trim payroll from last year, but it's not out of the realm of possibility, especially after KW said on the radio the other day that they Sox had lost money the last two years.

YOU CAN NOT TRUST NL PITCHER STATS! You really have to look at how the pitcher does vs 1-6 hitters. This is what I always use to prove BEYOND a SHADOW of a DOUBT that Buerhle is better than Wood

 

3 yr avg;

Buerhle: OBP, SLG vs

Batting #1 .288, .356

Batting #2 .285, .396

Batting #3 .358, .478

Batting #4 .308, .487

Batting #5 .358, .478

Batting #6 .312, .412

1-6 avg: 0.318, 0.434

 

Wood: OBP, SLG vs

Batting #1 .366, .408

Batting #2 .309, .324

Batting #3 .346, .455

Batting #4 .349, .435

Batting #5 .347, .466

Batting #6 .278, .272

1-6 avg: 0.333, 0.393

 

Mark is the better pitcher. Especially when you compare the offenses of the ALC to the NLC over that time period. Look at the big disparity betw the 5th & 6th spots for Wood. Do you think that's because of Wood or because of the weakness in the lineups he faces? When you compare these two you have to ask yourself how would

Mark fare in the NL & how would Kerry fare in the AL because that's the only way you can compare them. I think in both cases Mark wins the argument.

What do the numbers prove? That Kerry loads the bases more often than not

& then reliies on getting out the 7-9 hitters to get out of the inning. They'd run circles around him in the AL.

 

Clement: OBP, SLG vs

Batting #1 .314, .375

Batting #2 .274, .311

Batting #3 .398, .536

Batting #4 .372, .442

Batting #5 .292, .328

Batting #6 .276, .368

1-6 avg: 0.321, 0.393

 

O Perez: OBP, SLG vs

Batting #1 .264, .364

Batting #2 .285, .368

Batting #3 .290, .487

Batting #4 .321, .488

Batting #5 .292, .339

Batting #6 .354, .544

1-6 avg: 0.301 0.431

 

I'll take Perez. The NL guys that fail in the AL always have worse OBP vs.

In the AL pitchers have to keep guys off base to be successful. In the NL they have the luxury to put them on to get out of jams.

 

Comparing the #6 batter in Perez, Wood, & Clement just goes to show how poor the lineups are in the NLC.

Preaching to the choir about Wood man.... Love those numbers. I think Wood is a very good pitcher, don't get me wrong, but I think he is overrated... He needs to learn to maximize his pitches and go deeper into games

You've just sided with the pitcher who gives up the highest OPS in each of those arguments.

 

You've just sided with the pitcher who gives up the highest OPS in each of those arguments.

 

Which do you think hurts a pitcher more in the AL: OBP or SLG?

The answer is OBP. Why? Because the avg lineup in the AL is 200 OPS pts higher than the average lineup in the NL. That means it costs a pitcher a LOT more to put guys on in the AL then it does in the NL.

 

Just look at Wood's #'s! The first 5 guys avg an OBP of 340+! That would crush him in the AL! It's no contest!