Konerko Contract News

[qwerty]

Point remains the same -- Konerko doesn't deserve anything about eight million -- IMHO.  He has a career 111 OPS+ -- above average, but not a guy I want making 8-12 million per year -- which is what Konerko will be asking for.

 

And he'll probably get it, too.

 

I just think the money can be spent better elsewhere (like qwerty's guy comin' over from Japan -- the 24 year old who throws the gyro-ball, don't want to attempt the name spelling).

 

If we got daisuke matsuzaka...

[DBAHO]

If we got daisuke matsuzaka...

He's not YOUR guy though qwerty.

[CWSGuy406]

He's not YOUR guy though qwerty. 

 

While I certainly don't want the Sox to be get in a bidding war over this guy -- or, at least a huge, overpaying-for-the-guy bidding war, I'd imagine that he's going to be pretty high, or in the upper half, of teams he'd want to go to. Especially if Shingo is resigned, and Iguchi plays well.

 

How nice of a rotation would Buehrle-Garcia-Hernandez-Matsukaza-McCarthy be?

 

Ugh -- I wouldn't want to go up against that in a seven-game series...

[Rowand44]

compare his home-road numbers....u's always b**** about paulie needing to do better on the road.

Does he need to improve his road stats from last year--yes he does, but to say he can only hit at the cell is just ridiculous, imo.

[rangercal]

Does he need to improve his road stats from last year--yes he does, but to say he can only hit at the cell is just ridiculous, imo.

a lot of the sox need to improve on their road stats not just paulie.

[Texsox]

I get so bored with this.

 

The Sox will offer less than Kong can get elsewhere.

Kong is a greedy SOB if he takes it.

We need to spend that money to fill holes. Get a 3rd baseman, whatever.

 

The guy was out best position player last year. When you can not build with your best, you are always rebuilding.

[JUGGERNAUT]

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Mar 18, 2005 -> 02:24 PM)

I'd like to offer another scenario if I may.

Oakland won a WS with the bash-brothers. They were never brothers but there was a kinship felt between them. They are now tainted.

 

Frank & Koney could be the new bash-brothers the next 3 yrs. Koney has said everything right this year towards that endeavor. What would commercial spots of Frank & Koney together be worth to the ChiSox & MLB in general?

*

Jabloni:

I can't believe nobody else thought of that IN THE FIRST 6 YEARS they played with each other.

 

Being clean didn't mean much in those years. It means a heck of a lot more today.

[CWSGuy406]

I get so bored with this.

 

The Sox will offer less than Kong can get elsewhere.

Kong is a greedy SOB if he takes it.

We need to spend that money to fill holes. Get a 3rd baseman, whatever.

 

The guy was out best position player last year. When you can not build with your best, you are always rebuilding.

 

Tex, you were saying the same things last year with Magglio.

 

You wanted him to get the 15 million, I didn't.

 

And if we give PK 10+ million, people will be happy that we opened up the wallets -- when really, (at least IMHO), it's a pretty gross overpayment...

[Texsox]

I should have been clearer. I am bored with the process. It doesn't matter who the player is, the comments are always the same. Greedy player for not taking the team's offer.

 

I believe Kong and the White Sox should negotiate the best contract they can and in the end, if it means Konerko stays great, if he leaves, that's fine also. I can not fault either side for doing their best.

 

What bothers me the most, is the team cannot seem to keep their best players. (Frank is the exception, and if he was a position player, not a DH, I'll bet he would have been gone also). We keep dumping our best players to "fill holes". Soon we will have nothing but Crede's all around. A bunch of $3mil per year guys, a .500 record and no playoff appearances. Signing (enter player name here) is always presented as giving something up.

 

I guess what we have is a situation where as soon as a player should be payed more than $5 mil per season, he must be dealt and someone else brought in.

[witesoxfan]

I get so bored with this.

 

The Sox will offer less than Kong can get elsewhere.

Kong is a greedy SOB if he takes it.

We need to spend that money to fill holes. Get a 3rd baseman, whatever.

 

The guy was out best position player last year. When you can not build with your best, you are always rebuilding.

 

First of all, I will disagree that Konerko was our best position player last year. Statistically, it is kind of hard to argue...though the 1.000+ OPS at home and the .700-ish OPS on the road does not look good. However, Konerko is a one-dimensional player, having only power as the main aspect of his game. Defensively, he essentially loses both of those because he is a 1Bman, and you very rarely notice a difference defensively because of a 1Bman...for the most part, they are there to field a few ground balls now and then, and they catch the ball. Offensively, the only aspect he brings to the table is power...his .270 average is not among the best in the league, and his speed speaks for itself.

 

You do not give huge contracts to guys that bring 1 thing to the table. The only worse thing you can do is give huge contracts to guys who sometimes bring nothing to the table...look to Troy Glaus in Arizona, who got $11 mill a year or so, and he has been very banged up the past couple years; look to Maggs in Detroit, where if he can keep whichever knee it was that he messed up healthy, he is guaranteed $75 mill. I just do not think giving that much money to one guy who brings one thing to the table is wise.

 

He hits homers...seems to me that is what the Sox tried to get away from in the offseason. I think KW realizes that too...which is why I think you could see PK potentially in some type of trade during the season, for a bigger piece to the puzzle(like, say, perhaps an ace, which is something that is non-existent on the South Side). At the very least, I do not see him in a White Sox uniform next year.

[WHarris1]

You don't consider Buehrle an ace?

[qwerty]

You don't consider Buehrle an ace?

 

There are very few ''aces''. Buehrle is a number one starter for the white sox but on some teams he would be a two.

[witesoxfan]

Ace is an elite pitcher...a guy who will give you an ERA in the 3.00 range or lower seemingly every year, 17-20 wins a year, a WHIP of 1.10 at the highest, and who has very very few poor outings...an almost guaranteed quality start every time in other words.

 

Esteban Loaiza in 2003 was the last ace we had, and prior to, it was probably Black Jack.

[GoodAsGould]

yeah an ace is a guy that would be a number 1 in almost every team.... only exception to that rule was last year in Boston with Pedro and Schilling.

 

but for Buerhle as an example he would be a number 2 on the following teams.

 

Red Sox

Yankees

Toronto

Twins

Oakland

Atlanta

Florida

Mets

possibly Nationals(dont know either him or Livan would be the 1)

Cubs

Astros

Brewers

Pirates

possibly Cards(depends really how Mulder bounces back from that horrible last month)

Padres

Giants

[WHarris1]

1st in IP

3rd in QS

 

In the AL

[Gene Honda Civic]

yeah an ace is a guy that would be a number 1 in almost every team.... only exception to that rule was last year in Boston with Pedro and Schilling.

You might wanna rethink that one

 

Never mind -- I can't read... I didn't see the "last year" part.

Edited March 19, 2005 by Gene Honda Civic

[WHarris1]

17-20 wins a year

Since becoming a full-time starter MB has averaged 16.25 W's.

 

an almost guaranteed quality start every time in other words.

3rd in the AL in QS.

 

Also lead the AL in IP.

3rd in the entire MLB.

Edited March 19, 2005 by WHarris1

[CWSGuy406]

I should have been clearer. I am bored with the process. It doesn't matter who the player is, the comments are always the same. Greedy player for not taking the team's offer.

 

I believe Kong and the White Sox should negotiate the best contract they can and in the end, if it means Konerko stays great, if he leaves, that's fine also. I can not fault either side for doing their best.

 

What bothers me the most, is the team cannot seem to keep their best players. (Frank is the exception, and if he was a position player, not a DH, I'll bet he would have been gone also). We keep dumping our best players to "fill holes". Soon we will have nothing but Crede's all around. A bunch of $3mil per year guys, a .500 record and no playoff appearances. Signing (enter player name here) is always presented as giving something up.

 

I guess what we have is a situation where as soon as a player should be payed more than $5 mil per season, he must be dealt and someone else brought in.

 

OK -- I see what you're saying.

 

But we haven't really had "that guy" yet. By "that guy", I mean the offensive force, the complete player who really deserves that big paycheck.

 

You may disagree with me, but Magglio was the closest we've had to that, and even he wanted four-five million too much. A healthy Maggs, IMHO, was worth in the area of 10-12 million, and he wanted 15-17 million.

 

Next to Mags, I thought Lee was our next best player. And now he's gone, because the organization thought he didn't fit the mold.

 

The guys that I want this team to hold onto, and lock up long term, are Uribe and Rowand -- if they're able to repeat or come close to last year. Both play exceptional defense, are young, and are forces at the plate. Neither are OBP guys, but they do a lot to make up for that in their ability to hit for X-tra base hits. And did I mention defense? Both of these guys are our up-and-coming studs -- or the closest we have to that (and I'm not talking about prospects).

 

I also want them to keep Pierzynski long term, or at least till he proves that he can't handle the abilities behind the plate.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, we can't give the big bucks to guys who aren't star players. That's not to say I want a Joe Crede at every position, but I think the money can be better spent elsewhere (as far as Konerko, and if he wants ten million + -- if he wants 7-8, I think that's a lot more reasonable...).

[JUGGERNAUT]

Crede at every position? That would make us the worst team in MLB!

Please say it ain't so!

 

Mark is definitely a regular season ace. Over th e past 5 yrs he is in the top 3 in winnable starts, & stop 5 in quality starts. His durability is a part of that but to be top 5 in quality starts is pretty impressive.

 

We have no idea of how he'll perform as a post season ace. To be a true ace you have to get it done in the post season. All we have to go on that is how well he's performed vs post season teams:

ERA, W, L

vs BOS 3.64 3 1

vs. MIN 3.89 11 6

vs. NYY 4.13 1 2

vs. OAK 4.01 2 5

vs. SEA 3.99 4 2

vs. ANA 2.74 0 2

record vs post-season teams: 21W 18L. Not good enough.

 

At best we can say Mark's an ace-. Not good enough to be a true ace, but better than most #1's.

Edited March 19, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[Texsox]

OK -- I see what you're saying.

 

But we haven't really had "that guy" yet.  By "that guy", I mean the offensive force, the complete player who really deserves that big paycheck.

 

You may disagree with me, but Magglio was the closest we've had to that, and even he wanted four-five million too much.  A healthy Maggs, IMHO, was worth in the area of 10-12 million, and he wanted 15-17 million. 

 

Next to Mags, I thought Lee was our next best player.  And now he's gone, because the organization thought he didn't fit the mold.

 

The guys that I want this team to hold onto, and lock up long term, are Uribe and Rowand -- if they're able to repeat or come close to last year.  Both play exceptional defense, are young, and are forces at the plate.  Neither are OBP guys, but they do a lot to make up for that in their ability to hit for X-tra base hits.  And did I mention defense?  Both of these guys are our up-and-coming studs -- or the closest we have to that (and I'm not talking about prospects).

 

I also want them to keep Pierzynski long term, or at least till he proves that he can't handle the abilities behind the plate.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, we can't give the big bucks to guys who aren't star players.  That's not to say I want a Joe Crede at every position, but I think the money can be better spent elsewhere (as far as Konerko, and if he wants ten million + -- if he wants 7-8, I think that's a lot more reasonable...).

 

 

I am not seeing a building process. We seemingly cannot build with any All-Stars. You mention two players who, by the time their contracts are up, will probably command too much money.

 

I just do not have confidence in the team keeping a player long term who makes more than 7 or 8 million. Pierzynski has got to prove himself before I'd agree with keeping him long term. 3 teams in 3 years is not confidence inspiring.

 

The balance may be where to spend the payroll. I believe up the middle is important and that fits in with you mentioning Piers and Rowand. So perhaps 1st base isn't the place to spend money, and a case could also be made to not spend it on a DH either.

 

Another thought, each time a starter is replaced, building would mean replacing him with a better player. We don't seem to be doing that. We take from this pile (Lee, Olivo, Maggs unavoidable) to add to this pile. It doesn't seem like a net gain. Retooled a bit, but we knock down high spots to fill the holes and we wind up with average all the way around.

Edited March 19, 2005 by Texsox

[witesoxfan]

Since becoming a full-time starter MB has averaged 16.25 W's.

3rd in the AL in QS.

 

Also lead the AL in IP.

3rd in the entire MLB.

 

I am not saying Mark is not a good pitcher. I'm saying he isn't an ace.

 

When I think of ace, not only do I think of those ERA and WHIP numbers along with the QS and W's(IP really do not matter a ton), I also think of sheer dominance. Mark does not have the stuff to be a dominant pitcher.

 

As a comparison, how does Mark stack up to Ben Sheets? Off the top of my head, I think Mark throws more innings per year and he wins more games, but Sheets had an ERA of 2.70, a WHIP of .98, and an incredible K/BB of 8.25. I don't know off the top of my head how many QS's Sheets had, but I'm sure he had quite a few.

 

If you want some more comparisons, compare MB to Johan, Jason Schmidt, Randy Johnson, Tim Hudson, Curt Schilling, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, Oliver Perez, and perhaps more.

 

There are very few ace types in the league. However, you do not need one to have a very winning team(Angels of 02)...but it is nice to have them(Sawks 04, Marlins 03, DBacks 01, Yanks 00)

[WHarris1]

I am not saying Mark is not a good pitcher.  I'm saying he isn't an ace.

 

When I think of ace, not only do I think of those ERA and WHIP numbers along with the QS and W's(IP really do not matter a ton), I also think of sheer dominance.  Mark does not have the stuff to be a dominant pitcher.

 

As a comparison, how does Mark stack up to Ben Sheets?  Off the top of my head, I think Mark throws more innings per year and he wins more games, but Sheets had an ERA of 2.70, a WHIP of .98, and an incredible K/BB of 8.25.  I don't know off the top of my head how many QS's Sheets had, but I'm sure he had quite a few.

 

If you want some more comparisons, compare MB to Johan, Jason Schmidt, Randy Johnson, Tim Hudson, Curt Schilling, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, Oliver Perez, and perhaps more.

 

There are very few ace types in the league.  However, you do not need one to have a very winning team(Angels of 02)...but it is nice to have them(Sawks 04, Marlins 03, DBacks 01, Yanks 00)

Alright, to each his own.

 

I'll just say I'm damn satisfied with Mark as the #1 of my staff.

 

Also, Garcia has pretty damn good stuff, possibly ace stuff depending on how you view, "ace".

[JUGGERNAUT]

I am not saying Mark is not a good pitcher.  I'm saying he isn't an ace.

 

When I think of ace, not only do I think of those ERA and WHIP numbers along with the QS and W's(IP really do not matter a ton), I also think of sheer dominance.  Mark does not have the stuff to be a dominant pitcher.

 

As a comparison, how does Mark stack up to Ben Sheets?  Off the top of my head, I think Mark throws more innings per year and he wins more games, but Sheets had an ERA of 2.70, a WHIP of .98, and an incredible K/BB of 8.25.  I don't know off the top of my head how many QS's Sheets had, but I'm sure he had quite a few.

 

If you want some more comparisons, compare MB to Johan, Jason Schmidt, Randy Johnson, Tim Hudson, Curt Schilling, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, Oliver Perez, and perhaps more.

 

There are very few ace types in the league.  However, you do not need one to have a very winning team(Angels of 02)...but it is nice to have them(Sawks 04, Marlins 03, DBacks 01, Yanks 00)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I buy what you're saying & that's why a define Mark as an ACE-.

Looking at your list of names it's easy to see who the aces are. The guys who are usally in the top 20 in NPERA for their league year after year.

 

2004: Santana, Schilling, Radke, Harden, Garcia, Hudson, Martinez, Westbrook, Escobar, Lopez, Arroyo, Lilly, Bonderman, Buerhle, Sabathia, Leiber, Vazquez, Mussina, Drese, Zito

 

2003: Martinez, Hudson, Zito, Loaiza, Mussina, Halladay, Pineiro, Moyer, Mulder, Clemens, Colon, Pettite, Wakefield, Sabathia, May, Lilly, Franklin, Lohse, Wells, Buehrle

 

2002: Martinez, Lowe, Wakefield, Halladay, Zito, Moyer, Mulder, Washburn, Lopez, Lidle, Weaver, Hudson, Mussina, Wells, Clemens, Buehrle, Milton, Redman, Sabathia, Pineiro

 

2001: Mussina, Garcia, Mulder, Hudson, Buehrle, Mays, Zito, Moyer, Clemens, Lidle, Petitte, Nomo, Sele, Wakefield, Sabathia, Radke, Reed, Weaver, Sparks, Washburn

 

Most consistent in the top 20 AL lists (01-04): Martinez, Mussina, Hudson, Buehrle, Sabathia, Zito

Edited March 19, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[qwerty]

I buy what you're saying & that's why a define Mark as an ACE-.

Looking at your list of names it's easy to see who the aces are.  The guys who are usally in the top 20 in NPERA for their league year after year.

 

There are not twenty aces in all of baseball let alone in the american league.

[WHarris1]

There are not twenty aces in all of baseball let alone in the american league.

 

Most consistent in the top 20 AL lists (01-04): Martinez, Mussina, Hudson, Buehrle, Sabathia, Zito