But how would you know these things before the season even started?  That's where I'm not understanding you.  How could Kenny possibly know that Politte and Cotts might not be as good?  Or anywhere near as good?  Traded Politte?  Are you nuts?  Trade him for what?

I base my thinking about Politte looking at his career and as for what I would get for him, I would have to see what was available for a guy coming off a great season not making a ton of money. I was also a guy who was nuts wanting KW to trade Shingo the winter of 2004, when they could have gotten something for him. Look at Cotts numbers? Do you really think its fair to expect the same? I like Cotts and think he will be good, but he'll probably give up a few more runs this season. I have made no claims about getting rid of Cotts. Barring injury, he will be in the White Sox rotation in a couple of years. Maybe Buerhle's replacement if he goes to St. Louis.

You wouldn't take those numbers from him?  I sure would.  Especially since he wouldn't have been counted on to close this year.

Vizcaino had those numbers, he didn't close, and he got clobbered on this board.

I base my thinking about Politte looking at his career and as for what I would get for him, I would have to see what was available for a guy coming off a great season not making a ton of money. I was also a guy who was nuts wanting KW to trade Shingo the winter of 2004, when they could have gotten something for him. Look at Cotts numbers? Do you really think its fair to expect the same? I like Cotts and think he will be good, but he'll probably give up a few more runs this season. I have made no claims about getting rid of Cotts. Barring injury, he will be in the White Sox rotation in a couple of years. Maybe Buerhle's replacement if he goes to St. Louis.

 

Not that I've thought about this for even a second, but I don't think it would've been possible to trade Politte and have gotten anything better in return. As far as what I expect of Cotts and Politte, it doesn't really matter. I'm not gonna dismiss their '05 seasons as flukes just because. And what if they don't match those numbers? Does that mean they're gonna suck? Does that mean they still can't help us win games?

Vizcaino had those numbers, he didn't close, and he got clobbered on this board.

 

Giving up 6 runs in the 3rd game of the season won't set the tone for a good reputation with a fanbase.

I base my thinking about Politte looking at his career and as for what I would get for him, I would have to see what was available for a guy coming off a great season not making a ton of money. I was also a guy who was nuts wanting KW to trade Shingo the winter of 2004, when they could have gotten something for him. Look at Cotts numbers? Do you really think its fair to expect the same? I like Cotts and think he will be good, but he'll probably give up a few more runs this season. I have made no claims about getting rid of Cotts. Barring injury, he will be in the White Sox rotation in a couple of years. Maybe Buerhle's replacement if he goes to St. Louis.

 

Agreed about all three. Politte's been around for some time and last year looks like an anomoly on his record. On the other hand, Cotts is still young and it seems like he's developing into a very solid pitcher.

 

I wasn't high on Shingo going into last year, either. I thought that it was just a matter of time before AL hitters adjusted to him. Aging closers who try to get by with unorthodox deliveries, 80-mph fastballs, and junk offspeed pitches are absolutely screwed when they don't locate with pinpoint accuracy.

Giving up 6 runs in the 3rd game of the season won't set the tone for a good reputation with a fanbase.

 

That wasn't all his fault. I agree that many were too hard on Viz last year.

Not that I've thought about this for even a second,  but I don't think it would've been possible to trade Politte and have gotten anything better in return.  As far as what I expect of Cotts and Politte,  it doesn't really matter.  I'm not gonna dismiss their '05 seasons as flukes just because.  And what if they don't match those numbers?  Does that mean they're gonna suck?  Does that mean they still can't help us win games?

 

As I mentioned before, Cotts is a keeper. I think you will be dissapointed in Cliff.

Not that I've thought about this for even a second,  but I don't think it would've been possible to trade Politte and have gotten anything better in return.  As far as what I expect of Cotts and Politte,  it doesn't really matter.  I'm not gonna dismiss their '05 seasons as flukes just because.  And what if they don't match those numbers?  Does that mean they're gonna suck?  Does that mean they still can't help us win games?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's no way you trade Politte. He was probably the best middle reliever in the entire MLB last season and he's making peanuts this season ($1.2 million). Even if he doesn't reproduce last season's numbers (which he likely won't), he's still valuable to our bullpen. Hermanson would have been ideal to trade after his career year but obviously no one is going to trade for a reliever with a bad back.

Edited March 14, 200620 yr by SSH2005

As I mentioned before, Cotts is a keeper. I think you will be dissapointed in Cliff.

 

I'll be more than satisfied with an era in the 3's. If Politte bombs, I'll be the first to say you were right. I don't think that's gonna happen, though.

There's no way you trade Politte.  He was probably the best middle reliever in the entire MLB last season and he's making peanuts this season ($1.2 million).  Even if he doesn't reproduce last season's numbers (which he likely won't), he's still valuable to our bullpen

 

Exactly!

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 11:34 PM)

I base my thinking about Politte looking at his career and as for what I would get for him, I would have to see what was available for a guy coming off a great season not making a ton of money. I was also a guy who was nuts wanting KW to trade Shingo the winter of 2004, when they could have gotten something for him. Look at Cotts numbers? Do you really think its fair to expect the same? I like Cotts and think he will be good, but he'll probably give up a few more runs this season. I have made no claims about getting rid of Cotts. Barring injury, he will be in the White Sox rotation in a couple of years. Maybe Buerhle's replacement if he goes to St. Louis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Trade Cliff for what? How would trading Cliff help this team repeat?

 

Anybody know what Scott Sullivan is up to? I'm surprised nobody has brought up Wunsch's name yet.

There's no way you trade Politte.  He was probably the best middle reliever in the entire MLB last season and he's making peanuts this season ($1.2 million).  Even if he doesn't reproduce last season's numbers (which he likely won't), he's still valuable to our bullpen.  Hermanson would have been ideal to trade after his career year but obviously no one is going to trade for a reliever with a bad back.

The same can be said about Shingo last year at this time. I hope I'm wrong about Politte, but veterans that cut their ERA's by 2.50 in one season, usually bounce back to mediocrity the next. If Politte pitches like he did in 2004, he will not be of help to the White Sox. Didn't he almost get non-tendered after 2004? I think he took a cut with some incentives and added a year.

Anybody know what Scott Sullivan is up to?  I'm surprised nobody has brought up Wunsch's name yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Scott Sullivan didn't play at all last season due to a lower back strain and had back surgery in late August. He's still a free agent and he just turned 35. As for Wunsch...

 

Latest News  Dec. 21, 2005 - 3:55 am et

 

Dodgers re-signed LHP Kelly Wunsch to a minor league contract and invited him to spring training.

If he makes the club, Wunsch will receive a base salary of $650,000 with bonuses of $25,000 for each of 40, 50 and 60 appearances. The reliever underwent ankle and hip surgeries last season, but he's expected to be ready for spring training.

Source:  Los Angeles Daily News

Edited March 14, 200620 yr by SSH2005

While I'm on the ex-Sox kick, how about Antonio Osuna? (Not homefish, the guy with the ugly mug.)

While I'm on the ex-Sox kick, how about Antonio Osuna?  (Not homefish, the guy with the ugly mug.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haha, I would take Osuna back in a second. I liked that dude a lot (not the poster ). He was pretty good in 2002 with us. He's still a free agent and I guess he pitched well in a Mexican league...

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpag...guenum=&id=1999

 

Osuna had arthroscopic surgery on his right shoulder last May so he should be healthy now. Also, he's not completely old enough to be in gas can territory yet (he's turning 33 on April 12th). Great suggestion, by the way.

Edited March 14, 200620 yr by SSH2005

Haha, I would take Osuna back in a second.  I liked that dude a lot (not the poster  ).  He was pretty good in 2002 with us.  He's still a free agent and I guess he pitched well in a Mexican league...

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpag...guenum=&id=1999

 

Osuna had arthroscopic surgery on his right shoulder last May so he should be healthy now.  Also, he's not completely old enough to be in gas can territory yet (he's turning 33 on April 12th).  Great suggestion, by the way.

 

That is a great call btw. I'd bring him back in as well...especially with Hermy almost a shoo-in for IR at some point IMO. Right now I"m looking at he really can't be relied on this year at all.

Osuna would be a good FA minor league pickup right now. He's doing pretty good in the WBC at the moment as well. The dude had a 2.45 ERA in 2004, and 2 fairly good seasons before that as well.

 

I'll repost who I mentioned in another thread;

 

Scott Williamson - Said he would like to close, could still have that oppurtunity here if Jenks falters. Dunno if the Cubs would deal with us though.

 

Ryan Wagner - Really fallen out of favor in Cinci. Depends how Krivsky likes him.

 

Danny Graves - Doubtful to make Cleveland bullpen competiting with 3 other guys for 1 spot. Given up 1 unearned run in his last 4IP.

 

Zach Day - Now if you wanted to move B-Mac into a setup role, if you needed a long man, Day could be your guy. Excellent groundball pitcher IIRC, but has had arm issues.

 

Brian Shackleford - A lefty from Cinci. Better against righties, and had some good numbers last season with a 2.43 ERA in 37 games.

 

Other candidates who could be let go or could also be traded for are;

 

Jermaine Van Buren (Boston) - Could be a good option. Stuck behind a lot of relievers in Boston, is only 25 and had a 1.99 ERA in AAA last season.

Wes Obermuller (Atlanta) - Hasn't had much success in the majors, but IIRC has a fairly good arm.

Jason Bulger, Kevin Gregg, Esteban Yan (Anaheim) - 3 guys competing for 1 spot in the Angels pen. Not sure if they're out of options or anything, but could be worth lookin at if they become available.

Osuna would be a good FA minor league pickup right now. He's doing pretty good in the WBC at the moment as well. The dude had a 2.45 ERA in 2004, and 2 fairly good seasons before that as well.

 

I'll repost who I mentioned in another thread;

Other candidates who could be let go or could also be traded for are;

 

Jermaine Van Buren (Boston) - Could be a good option. Stuck behind a lot of relievers in Boston, is only 25 and had a 1.99 ERA in AAA last season.

Wes Obermuller (Atlanta) - Hasn't had much success in the majors, but IIRC has a fairly good arm.

Jason Bulger, Kevin Gregg, Esteban Yan (Anaheim) - 3 guys competing for 1 spot in the Angels pen. Not sure if they're out of options or anything, but could be worth lookin at if they become available.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great post. Osuna still looks like the best option to me. He is probably the best reliever out of that list and he would likely only cost a minor league deal, definately under a million dollars. The Sox are supposed to have scouts watching the talent in the WBC so maybe they are checking out some relievers as we speak. It looks like Ozuna only pitched one inning for Mexico with 2 strikeouts.

 

http://www.worldbaseballclassic.com/2006/s...t=t_ibp&cid=867

Edited March 14, 200620 yr by SSH2005

To put things into perspective, I took a look at last year's stats to see what the Sox have to replace in terms of pitching. If you take the stats for El Duque, Viz, Marte, and now Hermanson, the Sox would have to replace the following:

                                   IP    H   ER   BB   ERA   WHIP

 D Hermanson                     57.3   46   13   17   2.04  1.10

 J Vizcaino                      70.0   74   29   29   3.73  1.47

 D Marte                         45.3   45   19   33   3.77  1.72

 O Hernandez                    128.3  137   73   50   5.12  1.46

 Total                          301.0  302  134  129   4.00  1.43 

Now if Vazquez can eat his normal 210 innings, Jenks takes 30 more than last year (39IP), and McCarthy takes 40 more than last year (67IP), that is 280 IP. So the other relievers would have to pitch about 21 innings if all the other pitchers pitched the same amount as last year.

 

Then I realized that I should include all other pitchers into the equation (Shingo, Baj, etc), and using their totals the Sox would have to replace:

               IP    H   ER   BB   ERA   WHIP

S Takatsu    28.7   30   19   16   5.97  1.60

J Bajenaru    4.3    4    3    0   6.23  0.92 

J Adkins      8.3   13    8    4   8.64  2.04

K Walker      7.0   10    7    5   9.00  2.14   

D Sanders     2.0    3    3    1  13.50  2.00

Total        50.3   60   40   26   7.15  1.71
 

1st Total   301.0  302  134  129   4.00  1.43 

Overall     351.3  362  174  155   4.46  1.47

So in reality, the Sox last two relievers would have to pitch about 71 total innings to equal last year's effort. Also, the 50 1/3 innings with an ERA of 7.15, WHIP 1.71 should not be that hard to replace.

Edited March 14, 200620 yr by RME JICO

RMEJICO, great job on that analysis, interesting way to look at it.

 

I still have concerns, those being I expect Freddy Garcia to miss a few turns this year. The lefty thing will sort itself out. As for another righthander, that's a must, whether Hermanson is healthy or not. Cooper has said all along that Vizcaino was an unsung hero in 2005 and Cooper is right. He was a whipping boy here and certainly not the world's greatest pitcher but he took the ball and ate innings.

 

Guillen does not want any health question marks, he is adamant about having guys to rely on. Also a big thing to consider is they like pitchers in certain roles. If they start flipping guys around it makes things more difficult.

 

I spent about 45 mins. looking at other team's spring training reports last nite, there are at least a dozen guys who are on the bubble and supposedly out of options. Therefore I continue to remain confident they will get this resolved.

 

On another note, they really like this Boone Logan guy. Sounds crazy to me but who knows. I am anxious to see him pitch, it appears he throws strikes.

To further add to my level of confidence, it's only 4-5 days before quickman goes to Arizona and I suspect he has motivational meetings set up with KW, Rick Hahn, etc. already to get this thing resolved.

RMEJICO, great job on that analysis, interesting way to look at it.

 

I still have concerns, those being I expect Freddy Garcia to miss a few turns this year.  The lefty thing will sort itself out.  As for another righthander, that's a must, whether Hermanson is healthy or not.  Cooper has said all along that Vizcaino was an unsung hero in 2005 and Cooper is right.  He was a whipping boy here and certainly not the world's greatest pitcher but he took the ball and ate innings.

 

Guillen does not want any health question marks, he is adamant about having guys to rely on.  Also a big thing to consider is they like pitchers in certain roles. If they start flipping guys around it makes things more difficult.

 

I spent about 45 mins. looking at other team's spring training reports last nite, there are at least a dozen guys who are on the bubble and supposedly out of options.  Therefore I continue to remain confident they will get this resolved.

 

On another note, they really like this Boone Logan guy.  Sounds crazy to me but who knows.  I am anxious to see him pitch, it appears he throws strikes.

 

 

i will let you know about boone when I get down there. hopefully there will be more in camp soon for me to complain about.

there will be more for me to complain about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good, we all just want to see you happy.

While I'm on the ex-Sox kick, how about Antonio Osuna?  (Not homefish, the guy with the ugly mug.)

 

Or maybe we could bring back Carlos Castillo and make a run at the Heaviest Bullpen in the Majors title.

To further add to my level of confidence, it's only 4-5 days before quickman goes to Arizona and I suspect he has motivational meetings set up with KW, Rick Hahn, etc. already to get this thing resolved.

Fade in

 

Phone rings

 

Kenny Williams glances at the Caller ID on his Blackberry, pauses a beat, then dumps the call to voice mail.

 

Rick Hahn: Aren't you going to answer that?

 

KW: Nah, it's just quickman. Again. All he's going to do is tell me that you suck, and the minor league system sucks.

 

I don't need that. I could get that at home from my wife.

 

Fade out

 

/end scene