2007 Sox. Am I the Only One Scratching My Head?

[Pants Rowland]

2006 - What really happened. He rightly got rid of the 2 crutches on the team ..........lefty Marte and Vizcaino. In turn, he NEVER REPLACED their bad arms with Better ARms. This proved COSTLY as the other solid arms in the bullpen, Neil Cotts and Cliff Pollitte each took 6 steps backward, and the bullpen proved to be our downfall.

 

 

DING!DING!DING!DING! We have a winnah!

 

To me the combination of a terrible bullpen early in the season combined with inconsistent defense in the outfiled (Pods and Mack) had a huge ripple effect on the entire team, in particular the starting pitchers. The starters were inconsistent to ineffective at times (see Beuhrle v. Cubs before the ASB) but I strongly believe this was a combination of postseason fatigue, followed by morale lost due to blown saves coupled with poor defense extending innings, followed by even more fatigue because Ozzie was forced to leave them in when the bullpen was ineffective. I do believe this really spiraled out of control and manifested considerably in the second half. The weak bullpen took a terrible toll on this team and gradually ate away at their ability to compete at a championship level.

[LVSoxFan]

I agree with the idea that they all looked tired in '06. Hell I got tired just looking at... how tired they looked. No snap. Especially in the second half.

 

Well either way, it sure will be interesting to see how KW's moves pay off this year.

 

I hope Ozzie goes back to '05 Ozzie, where he was smiling and goofing and inspiring everyone.

 

This may be a stretch, but I think his freakouts last year and going off on the kid pitcher or Garland in front of the team was bringing 'em down.

[AirScott]

DING!DING!DING!DING! We have a winnah!

 

To me the combination of a terrible bullpen early in the season combined with inconsistent defense in the outfiled (Pods and Mack) had a huge ripple effect on the entire team, in particular the starting pitchers. The starters were inconsistent to ineffective at times (see Beuhrle v. Cubs before the ASB) but I strongly believe this was a combination of postseason fatigue, followed by morale lost due to blown saves coupled with poor defense extending innings, followed by even more fatigue because Ozzie was forced to leave them in when the bullpen was ineffective. I do believe this really spiraled out of control and manifested considerably in the second half. The weak bullpen took a terrible toll on this team and gradually ate away at their ability to compete at a championship level.

we were spoiled in 2005. Vizcaino was our worst pitcher, we cringed when he was brought into games...but he still had an ERA around 3.50. at that time, teams would've killed to have him, which I realized and then REALLY started to like the 2005 White Sox chances. our worst reliever really wasn't that bad.

[rpmahr]

I'm not really sure how you can say the White Sox' starting rotation is really any better than Cleveland's. Both have a bullpen that's a question mark the Sox' has much more upside but is still a major question mark and Cleveland's offense is better than that of the Sox.

 

other than CC their starters havent won more than 15 games....cleveland's starters havent really had any success that the sox have had...garland is a 2-time 18 game winner...buerhle has been a cy young contender and has won 15+ games 4 seasons...i dont even no if cc has been a cy young contender yet in his career...and their bull pen is older and full of rejects from other teams...cleveland seems like another version 2000 sox

[Kalapse]

other than CC their starters havent won more than 15 games....cleveland's starters havent really had any success that the sox have had...garland is a 2-time 18 game winner...buerhle has been a cy young contender and has won 15+ games 4 seasons...i dont even no if cc has been a cy young contender yet in his career...and their bull pen is older and full of rejects from other teams...cleveland seems like another version 2000 sox

I could give 2 s***s about Cy Young voting or wins. Of course if you REALLY want to use Cy Young voting as some kind of barometer of success then Cliff Lee > Mark Buehrle since the only time Buehrle ever finished in the top 5 in CY Voting Cliff Lee finished a spot ahead of him.

 

For his final 18 starts last season Mark Buehrle was the worst pitcher in baseball post numbers so horrendous that I don't even want to think about them. Do you know why he was so terrible? No, so I really don't see how you can assume he'll go back to being an above average major league starter next season.

 

CC Sabathia was outstanding last season above and beyond any starter the White Sox had even their #1 starter Contreras. Jose's 40+ year old body and 1 year of major MLB success isn't going instill a whole lot of confidence in me. So as for the anchors of the 2 rotations, Contreras and Sabathia the Indians take a major edge.

 

Just to skip ahead to the next major mismatch in the 2 rotations I'll examine the #5 starters. This should be quick, Floyd the current front runner for the Sox' #5 spot has shown 0 success at the major league level and at this point in his career can only be characterized as a bust with some potential to turn things around but the odds aren't exactly in his favor. Jeremy Sowers on the other hand posted far better numbers than any White Sox starter last season, especially in the second half when he posted a 2.72 ERA, 1.13 WHIP and a 2.46 BAA in 11 starts. Another MAJOR edge to the Indians.

 

As for the middle of the 2 rotations, I don't see any real advantages for either team with Westbrook, Lee and Byrd being roughly equal to Garland, Vazquez and Buehrle with the Sox' having more upside.

 

As for the 2 bullpens, both a pretty big question marks despite being constructed in two totally different ways. The Indians' collections of journeyman could be fairly solid but will definitely be an upgrade over last year's joke of a pen that they were trotting out there day in and day out. The Sox' have some major upside in their bullpen with the possibility of dominance but at the same time a collection of incredibly unproven talent. Advantage White Sox.

 

If both teams play up to their full potentials the Sox have the superior pitching staff but that is asking quite a bit of both groups especially after how pathetically last year's Sox rotation fell on its face.

[spiderman]

My biggest problem with the team:

Kenny did NOTHING to addrees the offense, which had turned into previous versions of a HR happy and dependent team that didn't score runs otherwise. They could score 12 runs in one game, but the rest of the week would combine for that. They come into the season with a questionable lead-off hitter, and holes on offense in LF, CF, and SS.

 

My most intrigue:

Bullpen - it's unproven, but can be potentially very good. Lots of good arms, and I'm excited/optimisitic about turning over a close game to the bullpen. Again, I'm not annointing them for anything of yet, but there is a lot of talent in there.

 

Rotating 5th starter ?:

Kenny doesn't think so as he's in love with Gavin Floyd's potential, and he'll be the leader for that spot. I hope he's right, and I also hope he's not falling in love with the potential so many of those pitchers he has acuqired without them actually producing. Back to Floyd - if he has an ERA under 5.00, I'd consider it a successful season from the 5th spot.

[beck72]

To the original question, I think the 2007 season will depend on the starters pitching the way they should and the bullpen shutting the door. My guess the pitching will be near the top of the AL again like in 2005. The Sox have depth both in the rotation and bullpen that wasn't there in 2006. The offense should be fine. And the sox have some talent to trade in case they need a few missing pieces.

[soxwon]

Well, we've all known you're crazy for a long time, but that's for another thread.

I agree with you, I have no idea what to expect from the Sox, or the rest of AL Central this year. That's why I'm so looking forward to it. What's the fun of knwoing what's gonna happen ahead of time?

 

 

let me be the first one to say

the 07 sox are going to be AWESOME.

and will positvely make the world series

it will be better than 05, everything will jell perfectly

And dont criticize me and say im nuts.

Whats wrong with being TOTALLY OPTOMISTIC?

The Kennys Kids- Danks,Floyd,Sisco, Aardsma etc will be studs.

[BMac Attack]

When you talk about "trading for missing pieces" I'm totally with you, and I think it's going to have to be done. The problem is given the way Kenny's been addressing things lately (i.e. in small ways) I don't think we can fill all the holes this team has - and there are quite a few, which I won't list because everyone's been doing that already. There are some sure things on this 2006 squad - 6 of the 8 position players I think will come through like they usually do, and I don't see the pitching being so s***ty again. It's just replacing the holes that are hurting the most, and to do that I think we're going to have to wait and do it on the fly. We don't have to be perfect; when you look at the absolute crap that made it into the postseason last year and won, I like our chances once we get there. It's just the getting there.

[LVSoxFan]

My biggest problem with the team:

Kenny did NOTHING to addrees the offense, which had turned into previous versions of a HR happy and dependent team that didn't score runs otherwise. They could score 12 runs in one game, but the rest of the week would combine for that. They come into the season with a questionable lead-off hitter, and holes on offense in LF, CF, and SS.

 

HA! I said this second half last year repeatedly: we look like the '04 Sox right now.

 

Then, as now, I will take our 1-0 smallball squeaker wins any day over the 13 run-then-score-nothing-for-two-games days of '04 or second half last season.

[bmags]

i usually am pumped for every season. I feel like we have a world series caliber team if all the pieces fall in place.

[Kalapse]

HA! I said this second half last year repeatedly: we look like the '04 Sox right now.

 

Then, as now, I will take our 1-0 smallball squeaker wins any day over the 13 run-then-score-nothing-for-two-games days of '04 or second half last season.

Quite the crock of s***. Just some food for thought.

 

The key to your 1-0 smallball victory is the 0. You need the pitching to shutout the opponent inorder for this to work, something the starting pitching did in '05 but couldn't in '06.

 

As for the all or nothing score 13 runs then nothing for 2 games theory. That amazing small ball team of '05 was shutout by the opponent a total of 7 times quite the accomplishment for an offense that prides itself on eeking a run or 2 accross the plate each game. Of course the '04-esque long ball stylings of the '06 team must have been shutout atleast 7 times but probably more right? Because a team that 'only hit HRs' can not consistantly score runs day in and day out. Well they were only shutout 6 times last year which isn't great but was still better than the Awesome Ozzieball of '05.

 

Like Tony said, it takes great pitching for the smallball approach to work. If the starting pitching is holding the opponent down to 3 or less runs most every day then the offense can maybe get away with scoring 1-3 runs a game but when the pitching sucks like it did last year and 5 or 6 runs are crossing the plate on most days then the smallball approach is not going to work, you're going to need the 3 run HRs to come along.

 

If the Sox would have gotten similar production from the pitching staff in '06 like they did '05 they would have won 95+ games and the division because of that oft-explosive HR heavy offense.

 

And this may be said each time this subjected it debated but it definitely bares repeating it's not like the '05 didn't hit HRs, they still hit 200 that season which isn't exactly smallball, it's a lot closer to inept ball.

[winninguglyin83]

I like this team.a

Erstad will help. Good attitude. Can play many places and he should light a fire under Anderson.

 

Crede continues to play for big money.

 

Buehrle needs to bounce back to get the contract he wants.

 

We improved the bullpen -- which sucked for long stretches of last season without Hermie, Politte and Cotts doing anything.

 

I think Vaz is going to have a BIG year. Just a hunch. But he has the ability. Second year with Coop should help him.

 

Toby Hall is a plus.

 

We've got as much reason to be optimistic as the Twinkies -- who lost Santana and Radke.

 

The Tigers will be good, but it's tough to stay motivated after everybody pats you on the back all winter. Plust that extra month should hurt their bullpen, which already has to replace Jamie Walker.

The team that worries me the most is Cleveland. I think they will be much improved -- if they stay healthy.

[BMac Attack]

I like this team.a

Erstad will help. Good attitude. Can play many places and he should light a fire under Anderson.

 

Crede continues to play for big money.

 

Buehrle needs to bounce back to get the contract he wants.

 

We improved the bullpen -- which sucked for long stretches of last season without Hermie, Politte and Cotts doing anything.

 

I think Vaz is going to have a BIG year. Just a hunch. But he has the ability. Second year with Coop should help him.

 

Toby Hall is a plus.

 

We've got as much reason to be optimistic as the Twinkies -- who lost Santana and Radke.

 

The Tigers will be good, but it's tough to stay motivated after everybody pats you on the back all winter. Plust that extra month should hurt their bullpen, which already has to replace Jamie Walker.

The team that worries me the most is Cleveland. I think they will be much improved -- if they stay healthy.

 

Sorry do you mean Liriano, or are there multiple Santanas, like a non-pitcher?

[greg775]

if the pitching staff doesn't falter this year, we'll contend. If it has the same kind of year has last year, we're gonna be in trouble....again.

 

SNB is right. It's that simple.

[spiderman]

Quite the crock of s***. Just some food for thought.

 

The key to your 1-0 smallball victory is the 0. You need the pitching to shutout the opponent inorder for this to work, something the starting pitching did in '05 but couldn't in '06.

 

As for the all or nothing score 13 runs then nothing for 2 games theory. That amazing small ball team of '05 was shutout by the opponent a total of 7 times quite the accomplishment for an offense that prides itself on eeking a run or 2 accross the plate each game. Of course the '04-esque long ball stylings of the '06 team must have been shutout atleast 7 times but probably more right? Because a team that 'only hit HRs' can not consistantly score runs day in and day out. Well they were only shutout 6 times last year which isn't great but was still better than the Awesome Ozzieball of '05.

 

Like Tony said, it takes great pitching for the smallball approach to work. If the starting pitching is holding the opponent down to 3 or less runs most every day then the offense can maybe get away with scoring 1-3 runs a game but when the pitching sucks like it did last year and 5 or 6 runs are crossing the plate on most days then the smallball approach is not going to work, you're going to need the 3 run HRs to come along.

 

If the Sox would have gotten similar production from the pitching staff in '06 like they did '05 they would have won 95+ games and the division because of that oft-explosive HR heavy offense.

 

And this may be said each time this subjected it debated but it definitely bares repeating it's not like the '05 didn't hit HRs, they still hit 200 that season which isn't exactly smallball, it's a lot closer to inept ball.

 

This is all well and true, but if we don't get great pitching like we did during the WS season, then we will need a more consistent offense - not just waiting on 3 run HR's.

[LVSoxFan]

Quite the crock of s***. Just some food for thought.

 

The key to your 1-0 smallball victory is the 0. You need the pitching to shutout the opponent inorder for this to work, something the starting pitching did in '05 but couldn't in '06.

 

As for the all or nothing score 13 runs then nothing for 2 games theory. That amazing small ball team of '05 was shutout by the opponent a total of 7 times quite the accomplishment for an offense that prides itself on eeking a run or 2 accross the plate each game. Of course the '04-esque long ball stylings of the '06 team must have been shutout atleast 7 times but probably more right? Because a team that 'only hit HRs' can not consistantly score runs day in and day out. Well they were only shutout 6 times last year which isn't great but was still better than the Awesome Ozzieball of '05.

 

Like Tony said, it takes great pitching for the smallball approach to work. If the starting pitching is holding the opponent down to 3 or less runs most every day then the offense can maybe get away with scoring 1-3 runs a game but when the pitching sucks like it did last year and 5 or 6 runs are crossing the plate on most days then the smallball approach is not going to work, you're going to need the 3 run HRs to come along.

 

If the Sox would have gotten similar production from the pitching staff in '06 like they did '05 they would have won 95+ games and the division because of that oft-explosive HR heavy offense.

 

And this may be said each time this subjected it debated but it definitely bares repeating it's not like the '05 didn't hit HRs, they still hit 200 that season which isn't exactly smallball, it's a lot closer to inept ball.

 

Well, uh yeah.

 

What's the big mystery? So yes: I prefer the lower runs/better pitching '05 team the feast-or-famine runs/iffy pitching of '04 and 2nd half '06? I'm not sure what we're arguing about here?

 

And don't tell me the '06 team was clutch hitting like '05, more runs or not.

[southsideirish71]

Well, uh yeah.

 

What's the big mystery? So yes: I prefer the lower runs/better pitching '05 team the feast-or-famine runs/iffy pitching of '04 and 2nd half '06? I'm not sure what we're arguing about here?

 

And don't tell me the '06 team was clutch hitting like '05, more runs or not.

 

Our offense in 05 sucked. It was horrible at times. Remember Dye and Konerko couldnt hit at all starting out the season and we survived on crazy pitching.

 

Remember Timo Perez as our DH, remember how in August no one could hit at all. Our 05 team's offense got hot towards the end of September and crazy hot in the playoffs. Outside of that period of time our offense was horrible, and a lot of us were worried how it was going to do in the playoffs. Everyone can have fantasy memories of 05 as how clutch the offense was, it wasnt. Clutch hitting teams dont jumble their lineup right before the playoffs because our number 3 hitter(Jurassic) couldnt hit all and we needed a desperate change. The formula for 05 was pitch like crazy, catch the ball and dont do stupid things The thing that made us a championship team was the fact that the hitting decided to show up in the playoffs.

 

The reason our team didnt make the playoffs last year was a few items. From the management side Ozzie putting in a corner OF in CF, Joey Cora waving everything that wasnt anchored down around. From the pitching side our pitchers not pitching a good entire season, some of them not pitching at all. Our bullpen being crappy and not holdling leads. And our Jeckle and Hyde Offense. The first part of the season they hit the ball like crazy, line drives, lots of homers not pressing. In the 2nd half it was terrible. Guys trying to hit home runs, and our offense morphing into the 2004 whitesox.

Edited January 29, 2007 by southsideirish71

[LVSoxFan]

Uh, does anybody read what I post here?

 

That's what I'm SAYING: 2004 Sox offense. That's what it reminded me of. HELLO?

 

I'm well aware of how in '06 the team fell apart because at any given time one of these things fell apart:

 

-Offense

-Pitching

-Bullpen

 

It seemed at no time were we ever firing on all three, hence the crappy season.

 

In '05 you'd at least get two out of three most of the time.

[GreatScott82]

Uh, does anybody read what I post here?

 

That's what I'm SAYING: 2004 Sox offense. That's what it reminded me of. HELLO?

 

I'm well aware of how in '06 the team fell apart because at any given time one of these things fell apart:

 

-Offense

-Pitching

-Bullpen

 

It seemed at no time were we ever firing on all three, hence the crappy season.

 

In '05 you'd at least get two out of three most of the time.

Yea and the 2 of the 3 were always bullpen and starting pitching! But they had just enough offense to win a ton of ballgames. Not to mention they had a variety of ways to manufacture runs. In 2006 they reverted back to the longball and because of that, they couldn't comeback in many games after trailing late because the offense was too 1 dimensional. Hopefully in 2007 they can find ways to manufacture runs again. Pods being out worries me a tad. We are going to begin the season w/o having a true leadoff hitter. I'm guessing we are going to be seeing a lot of Ozuna action the first month of the season.

[LVSoxFan]

Exactly. That's what I'm saying.

 

Even better: the part about our offense being "one dimensional." That it was.

 

Hell, I will always remember the '05 game against KC here where we won without batting in a run. We just held on and they walked in two runs and that's all we needed.

[Kalapse]

Hell, I will always remember the '05 game against KC here where we won without batting in a run. We just held on and they walked in two runs and that's all we needed.

That's not a good thing, that's a sign of extreme ineptitude. Thank god Zach Greinke was bad and Contreras pitched a shutout. If Jose gives up 2 runs that day, the Sox would have lost.

 

And as for this thread, my post had nothing to do with pitching really, that part is obvious. I was only talking about the offense while using the pitching as a comparison for both offenses.

[WinningUgly85]

well going into the 05 season none of us knew what we were going to expect. The media was crying failure but you know we just have to trust in KW. He made some gutsy trades prior to 05 and it worked out. We can't predict the weather nor the future we can only assume. I believe in the 07 sox more then the 06. We just need to trust in Kenny.

[LVSoxFan]

I'm fine with the look heading into '07. After hearing KW's thoughts and especially reading that ESPN article, I'm pretty psyched.