greg775 Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Say what you want about Oz, he managed perfectly in the 2005 postseason, as did our other coaches. No mismanaging of pitching, no dumb baserunning coaching blunders. No panicking and yanking starters early like Torre and some others. What was Skinner thinking tonight in not waving Lofton home? Is he insane? I think we have a manager who if given the tools will at least expertly manage us in games that count. There were so many blunders you could second guess this posteason. I mean how does Wedge survive blowing a 3-1 lead?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Its all about the performance on the field as well, and the Indians were not playing at their highest level against the Red Sox, in fact they were far from it. Wedge didnt manage them out of games, he had to watch his two best pitchers get b**chslapped by the Red Sox offense when they were up 3-1. Ozzie would have run the same two guys out there, and watched Carmona and Sabathia get popped the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 And if you saw Wedge's reaction, you can't blame him for Joel Skinner's decision. I think, and I'm speculating here, that Skinner thought it bounced off that wall harder than it actually did. Lofton was watching the play, he shoulda run through the sign. But, you know what, the way the Sawx were hitting last night, I think they still woulda won. JMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 The 2 aces didnt show up and the offense lost their bats. Game. Boston once again proves they win when it counts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29andPoplar Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 I really enjoyed watching the Boston-Cleveland series. Saw the game last night with a few friends and acquaintences, it was a blast talking baseball with these guys. Anyways, I saw this on the Indians website this morning and felt it was relevant to post. The article is "What went wrong for the Tribe" and this part was very telling: *** "The Red Sox drew 31 walks to the Indians' 16 over the series' seven games. The Red Sox also struck out 20 times fewer (63-43) than the Indians. They had five sacrifice flies and two sacrifice hits. The Indians had three sacrifice flies and no sacrifice hits. The Red Sox also hit .348 with runners in scoring position while the Indians hit .286. One more statistic: The Indians allowed four unearned runs. The Red Sox did not allow any. "You knew whoever took advantage of opportunities, or if mistakes were made, that was going to be the difference," Indians manager Eric Wedge said. *** Further down in the article, it discusses other obvious things that didn't go Cleveland's way. In particular, Sabathia and Carmona didn't have their best games, and a dissection of Cleveland hitters' problems (Boston pitchers execution?) in the last three games. I hope the White Sox brass was watching how the Red Sox got it done. Patience, no panic, working the pitchers, drawing walks, low strikeouts, sac flies, not allowing unearned runs, etc. In short ... winning baseball. To sum it up, one guy said last night something like, "Put three things together. One, do all the little things right. Two, insist players play the game that way, and three, make sure you have the players who can do it." Again, I hope the White Sox brass were watching, and taking notes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Lol you dont think some of it has to do with the redsox having 2 of the better post-season pitchers in recent history and 2 of the better hitters in all of baseball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29andPoplar Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Lol you dont think some of it has to do with the redsox having 2 of the better post-season pitchers in recent history and 2 of the better hitters in all of baseball? Yes. You will note I mentioned Boston pitchers execution, and several aspects of Boston's hitting. One of the big reasons why Ortiz and Ramirez are so good is they're selective and generally make pitchers work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Oct 22, 2007 -> 09:38 AM) Lol you dont think some of it has to do with the redsox having 2 of the better post-season pitchers in recent history and 2 of the better hitters in all of baseball? Well Cle had two of the best pitchers in the league, and some of the best hitters as well. They also have probably one of the biggest man crushes of this site leading off for them. They just didnt play when it counted. The talent level was very even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 The Indians lost that's it. You win and lose as a team. We spend too much time trying to pin failure on one event rather than overall performance or lack of it. Skinner must have made a quick decision based on what he saw in front of him and it was wrong, but one more run would have made the final 11-3 Red Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Wedge isn't to blame for this, and Skinner made a mistake, but that's one run in a blowout. Hafner, Sabathia, Carmona. When you have 2 legit CY candidates and they EACH put up a double-digit era, there's not much a manager can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Oct 22, 2007 -> 10:29 AM) Wedge isn't to blame for this, and Skinner made a mistake, but that's one run in a blowout. Hafner, Sabathia, Carmona. When you have 2 legit CY candidates and they EACH put up a double-digit era, there's not much a manager can do. Skinner sends the guy around and things are very different; Lofton's called safe at second and it's very different. It might be a blowout in the other direction. No excuses -- Sabathia and Carmona sucked. Hafner had a crummy season and postseason. I wonder how much it has to do with the forty plus innings he had on Beckett this season (exhaustion) and Carmona? I DO question his mental fortitude, somewhat, considering he sucked at closing and fell apart under pressure in Fenway, but he DID beat the Bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Oct 22, 2007 -> 10:35 AM) Skinner sends the guy around and things are very different; Lofton's called safe at second and it's very different. It might be a blowout in the other direction. No excuses -- Sabathia and Carmona sucked. Hafner had a crummy season and postseason. I wonder how much it has to do with the forty plus innings he had on Beckett this season (exhaustion) and Carmona? I DO question his mental fortitude, somewhat, considering he sucked at closing and fell apart under pressure in Fenway, but he DID beat the Bank. Their 2 aces didnt show up. It was more pucker factor than exhaustion. When Carmona is pumping in above 96 on his pitches, thats not exhaustion. He was nibbling, getting into hitters counts, and then he got rocked. His undoing was 2 infield singles, then he puckered up and got rocked. Oh and hopefully the white sox were watching, CC gets the sox free swingers to offer at some of those sliders in the dirt. The redsox made CC throw strikes. They turned him into a one pitch pitcher. Hafner was out of sorts all season long. Skinner screwed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Oct 22, 2007 -> 10:42 AM) Their 2 aces didnt show up. It was more pucker factor than exhaustion. When Carmona is pumping in above 96 on his pitches, thats not exhaustion. He was nibbling, getting into hitters counts, and then he got rocked. His undoing was 2 infield singles, then he puckered up and got rocked. Oh and hopefully the white sox were watching, CC gets the sox free swingers to offer at some of those sliders in the dirt. The redsox made CC throw strikes. They turned him into a one pitch pitcher. Hafner was out of sorts all season long. Skinner screwed up. CC was tired, not Carmona. I definitely think all those innings had SOME effect. And no, the White Sox weren't watching. They were golfing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosMediasBlancas Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 QUOTE(elrockinMT @ Oct 22, 2007 -> 10:20 AM) The Indians lost that's it. You win and lose as a team. We spend too much time trying to pin failure on one event rather than overall performance or lack of it. Skinner must have made a quick decision based on what he saw in front of him and it was wrong, but one more run would have made the final 11-3 Red Sox. Thank you, it was one play and one run. I guess every losing team needs it's Bartman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Oct 22, 2007 -> 11:35 AM) Skinner sends the guy around and things are very different; Lofton's called safe at second and it's very different. It might be a blowout in the other direction. No excuses -- Sabathia and Carmona sucked. Hafner had a crummy season and postseason. I wonder how much it has to do with the forty plus innings he had on Beckett this season (exhaustion) and Carmona? I DO question his mental fortitude, somewhat, considering he sucked at closing and fell apart under pressure in Fenway, but he DID beat the Bank. There's no reason to think the Red Sox would've stopped hitting if the Indians scored even 2 or 3 more. It's a big stretch to extrapolate a "blowout in the other direction" from one or two plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Oct 22, 2007 -> 11:50 AM) There's no reason to think the Red Sox would've stopped hitting if the Indians scored even 2 or 3 more. It's a big stretch to extrapolate a "blowout in the other direction" from one or two plays. I don't think so, but I definitely think the Indians had the wind knocked out of them in those situations and it dramatically changed the face of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVSoxFan Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 I don't think one play was gonna make it when the BoSox outscored them like 30-5 or something last three games. Everybody's right about their two aces not showing up, and this sure shows how important it is to put that team AWAY when you had them down 3-1. Now, THAT Ozzie sure made sure we did. And yes their two starters certainly didn't show up for EITHER of their games. Ours certainly did throughout the playoffs. Even our most famous former starter pitched the inning to end all innings--coincidentally--in Boston: El Duque. Plus last night, Boston was getting weird breaks (also reminiscent of us in 2005) like the Manny throwout from left that was a bad call, the weird bounce over the Cleveland shortstop's head and the stop at third base which then led to... a double play next batter. You could tell everything was just going Boston's way. So yes, a lot like us in 2005 in some respects. The big difference being that the BoSox are now heading to the Big Dance for the second time since breaking their curse, while our guys have been on the golf course for weeks. NEVER AGAIN! 2007: Not to be repeated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share Posted October 23, 2007 (edited) Did anybody read this weird short Mariotti internet column on the Sun Times? http://www.suntimes.com/sports/mariottiweb...ottiweb.article It briefly makes the point Torre should manage the Sox next year. He ends the column this way ... "I'd love to have that kind of man's man on the South Side. But, oh, I forgot. They gave Ozzie Guillen an extension through 2012. Fools." Fools? The Sox won a WS two years ago. Led by Ozzie. Only in Mariotti's world do coaches get fired on a whim. This guy is too predictable. What a "fool"ish column. Man this guy is a one-trick pony. Fire the manager; fire the quarterback. He even wrote a column a couple weeks ago on the Illini quarterback situation. Where's his column on firing Wedge? ONE TRICK PONY. Think Jay's hatred of Oz may stem from the fact Oz hates Mariotti and vice versa? Fans aren't that dumb to fall for this. Can you say personal vendetta? Where are all the other Chicago writers calling for Oz's head. Uh ... they aren't. Edited October 23, 2007 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share Posted October 23, 2007 Cause I can read it then disagree with it. I'm not boycotting his crap, just shaking my head at it. He has a right to say it, I just think he's a frickin idiot who treats his audience like they have a third degree education. The man has a personal vendetta vs. Oz and shouldn't be allowed to write any more columns about him. No other Sox writers are calling for Oz's head and they arguably know a lot more about baseball than Jay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVSoxFan Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 And there you have it. There's a personal thing between him and Oz and as long as Oz is running the team, Mariotti is persona non grata around the Cell. So of course he's going to hope for anybody else to be managing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 QUOTE(LVSoxFan @ Oct 23, 2007 -> 02:45 PM) And there you have it. There's a personal thing between him and Oz and as long as Oz is running the team, Mariotti is persona non grata around the Cell. So of course he's going to hope for anybody else to be managing. He's a persona non grata with or without Ozzie. Thankfully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Oct 22, 2007 -> 06:30 AM) The 2 aces didnt show up That was the greatest factor, IMO. You're not going to get by in a seven-game series with Westbrook and Byrd as your only effective starters. With the way that Sabathia and Carmona gave it up, I'm surprised that it even went seven games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share Posted October 23, 2007 Hopefully their aces will be hittable next year during the regular season. Hopefully this will bring them down to earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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