Miguel Cabrera to the Tigers

[rockren]

Alright, those keys in your pocket? Walk to the nearest river bank, look upstream, and throw them as far as you can. Get some new ones made in the morning after you get rid of that nasty hangover.

On a more serious note, did anyone take notice to the fact that Dontrelle sucked when the Marlins sucked? He really seems to be the type of pitcher who lives for competition and when he knows his team is going to suck, he just doesn't give a s***. For him, going to Detroit could be a career saver.

 

 

Regarding salary differences...I don't think it's HORRIBLE to take Floyd over Willis.

 

I watched Willis pitch an over/under of 10 times last year. He's never looked that bad in his career. He threw 85 or 86 every time I saw him and his off-speed (slider) looked like nothing.

 

D-Train will get hammered as the year goes on in the AL and will be a Long Reliever before too long.

Edited December 6, 2007 by rockren

[DBAHO]

It is all going to come down to pitching for Detroit, and to be honest, I'd be a little worried if I was a Tigers supporter.

 

Jones would be in the bottom 5 of closers in the whole league. It's only been because Zumaya's injured that he hasn't lost his job.

 

Zumaya missing half the season at least is really going to hurt them. Who else do they have there. Grilli? Rodney? It's not exactly stocked with great talent in there.

 

And then with the SP's, beside Verlander, all of the other 4 could be league average at best. Rogers is getting older and older, Bonderman has issues with inconsistency even though he should be dominant, Robertson regressed in 2007, while who knows what Willis will do moving to the AL.

 

So they could very well end up being a mirror image of the Sox of 2006 in 2008. Win around 90 games, and have a very good offense, but it ends up being the pitching that costs them when it's all said and done.

 

But ATM I don't see the Sox winning 90 games in 2008 (without at least 2-3 upgrades at CF, the back end of the rotation and the bullpen), and I doubt we'll see all of those happening.

[DBAHO]

Regarding salary differences...I don't think it's HORRIBLE to take Floyd over Willis.

 

I watched Willis pitch an over/under of 10 times last year. He's never looked that bad in his career. He threw 85 or 86 every time I saw him and his off-speed (slider) looked like nothing.

 

D-Train will get hammered as the year goes on in the AL and will be a Long Reliever before too long.

And if Floyd can prove his last 2 months of 2007 wasn't a fluke, then yeah so would I.

 

But that's a BIG IF though.

 

But who knows, Willis may find himself revitalized in Detroit, but then again he may look the same pitcher he's been recently, and that's one on a downward slope, because hitters have figured out his stuff and funky delivery.

[rockren]

It is all going to come down to pitching for Detroit, and to be honest, I'd be a little worried if I was a Tigers supporter.

 

I agree. They have high hopes and aspirations of winning it all next year and rightfully so.

 

But while their ceiling is ridiculously high...their floor could be just as low.

 

Your post hit it right on the head with having a potentially weak bullpen and a thin starting staff. I still admire what the Tigers have done...but one could argue and Tiger fans would probably admit that they're rolling the dice going into next season.

[Chombi]

Fair enough. If we are going to pick at Detroit's staff and really not let go of it...I can't argue it anymore.

 

What I can argue is that if Sox fans think that Verlander, Rogers, Bonderman and Willis are that bad...What do they think of our guys outside of MB and JV?

 

I'd say Javy is as much cause for concern as D-train. The only difference is they flipped their roles. One finally had a good season again after it took him years. The other had a bad season after dominating in 05 and pitching well in 06.

 

More importantly, if we look at potential. Since in other threads I have to hear about how our guys have soo much potential to do well this year, why is it not applied to other teams?

 

Why can't Sizemore step up and become the MVP he is supposed to be? Why can't Mauer finally stay healthy and hit .400 like they claim he will? Why won't the Royals break out with all sorts of their guys? How bout these same Tigers?

 

Why won't Bonderman finish a season? He looked damn good the first half. But he sucks right, i forgot?

 

Or Verlander? Guy still was only in his 2nd season and put together a pretty decent one. But he sucks too right? He won't get better. It's not like he is MB and JV who have already hit their ceilings, this guy is nothing. Who cares. He won't step up, but Josh Fields will.

 

Rogers will be solid. It's what he does.

 

Willis had that bad year. Everyone says he is done so let's write him off. Better yet, why don't we just compare him to Jose. The same Jose everyone expects to bounce back. Even though he showed similar problems with velocity/stuff/etc. He isn't in his mid 20's though so clearly he will bounce back. Especially with Willis now being a 4 or 5 starter.

 

Robertson is a decent 4 or 5 guy. Nothing special.

 

The Tigers staff isn't great but it wasn't much different last year. Or two years ago. If anything they're better cuz Bonderman and Verlander are maturing. Even Robertson is a crafty vet now....O yea and even if all of them put up a 4.5 team era, guess what??? They'll still win the division because they almost did last year and have more offense this season.

Edited December 7, 2007 by Chombi

[Chombi]

And if Floyd can prove his last 2 months of 2007 wasn't a fluke, then yeah so would I.

 

But that's a BIG IF though.

 

But who knows, Willis may find himself revitalized in Detroit, but then again he may look the same pitcher he's been recently, and that's one on a downward slope, because hitters have figured out his stuff and funky delivery.

 

I think it's more like one month.

 

I believe he came up in July. I'd have to double check but not right now.

 

I am fairly certain he got bombed in july and bombed in August. September was whe nhe pitched well I just think he was like 0-4 or something so it tends to be overlooked.

[DBAHO]

I'd definitely take JV over Willis quite easily. One is going forward, the other isn't.

 

And you have to consider the ballpark Vazquez pitched in and still had a sub 4 ERA, compared to Willis in an extreme pitchers park in the NL, and he couldn't come close to that.

 

Vazquez's 2006 was actually fairly decent as well, the 2nd half of the season showed that he was going to do well in 2007, and I remember telling a lot of doubters about him this time last off-season that. In fact, they thought he was the most expendable SP we had at the time (my how times have changed).

 

Rogers is solid, but I see him having an ERA around what Garland had this year, something close to 4.50. Robertson too. Bonderman has the potential to put up something below 4, but I don't see that happening, unless he makes a big leap forward in terms of sonsistency and actually putting together a whole season.

 

As for our pitchers, I'll be very happy if Floyd and Danks can put up an ERA below 5. I see it happening for 1 of them, but not both.

 

Contreras is the biggest wildcard. He could do anything, but I'm not terribly optimistic about him. Had a decent finish to 2007 though, which his supporters such as Dick are pointing out. Let's hope he can do what Vazquez did then.

[Pants Rowland]

I think the key positive to take out of this trade as a White Sox fan is that we will not face Andrew Miller this year. He is young and will need to figure things out as he establishes himself and will also, like everyone, need to stay healthy. However, while I do not like seeing that lineup with MCab in it for 19 games this year, I definitely prefer to face Willis over Miller when that slot in the rotation comes up.

[DBAHO]

Well that's a good point, considering how bad we are against stud LHP. It'd be pretty welcome on the Southside if we didn't have to face both Santana and Miller in 2008.

 

Of course if Dontrelle rebounds, then we're back at square one.

[fathom]

Well that's a good point, considering how bad we are against stud LHP. It'd be pretty welcome on the Southside if we didn't have to face both Santana and Miller in 2008.

 

Of course if Dontrelle rebounds, then we're back at square one.

 

Isn't Dontrelle very good against lefty hitters?

[Kalapse]

Isn't Dontrelle very good against lefty hitters?

2007 splits:

 

vs RHB: .320/.392/.527/.919

vs LHB: .123/.215/.142/.356

 

Not bad

[Balta1701]

Isn't Dontrelle very good against lefty hitters?

Wow. These may be the most remarkable splits I've ever looked up, for him last year. Certainly for a guy with a 1.60 WHIP overall and an ERA over 5 in the NL.

 

Vs. Left: .123 .213 .142 .355

Vs. Right: .320 .385 .527 .913

[Balta1701]

2007 splits:

 

vs RHB: .320/.392/.527/.919

vs LHB: .123/.215/.142/.356

 

Not bad

Beat me to it.

 

How long do you think until he's the best LOOGY in baseball history?

[DBAHO]

2007 splits:

 

vs RHB: .320/.392/.527/.919

vs LHB: .123/.215/.142/.356

 

Not bad

Well the likes of Konerko, Dye and Fields must be licking their lips then.

 

Those splits are just truly insane.

 

Surely you'd just load the lineup with RHH against him.

[Chombi]

I'd definitely take JV over Willis quite easily. One is going forward, the other isn't.

 

And you have to consider the ballpark Vazquez pitched in and still had a sub 4 ERA, compared to Willis in an extreme pitchers park in the NL, and he couldn't come close to that.

 

Vazquez's 2006 was actually fairly decent as well, the 2nd half of the season showed that he was going to do well in 2007, and I remember telling a lot of doubters about him this time last off-season that. In fact, they thought he was the most expendable SP we had at the time (my how times have changed).

 

Rogers is solid, but I see him having an ERA around what Garland had this year, something close to 4.50. Robertson too. Bonderman has the potential to put up something below 4, but I don't see that happening, unless he makes a big leap forward in terms of sonsistency and actually putting together a whole season.

 

As for our pitchers, I'll be very happy if Floyd and Danks can put up an ERA below 5. I see it happening for 1 of them, but not both.

 

Contreras is the biggest wildcard. He could do anything, but I'm not terribly optimistic about him. Had a decent finish to 2007 though, which his supporters such as Dick are pointing out. Let's hope he can do what Vazquez did then.

 

I didn't say I would take Willis over Javy. I said he is in a similar, but reversed situation. But seriously, forget the ballpark. It is a case of one bad season for Dontrelle, regardless of ballpark, to one good season for Javy. That's all I am saying. Both still have question marks coming into this season....And one other thing I never hear mentioned...Our hitter's all claim they couldn't hit because of the weather...Do you factor that into your Javy domination? Just something to think about when you hear that kind of talk about our hitters, cuz it was bs.

 

Javy did look better but not much. I still want to say he had like a 4.8 era in the 2nd half. I remember looking at his numbers and being surprised a little how high his era was... He did well and people were skeptical still. He needs this season and if he performs well again I think it will be hard to doubt him. Same with D-train. If he is buzzin fastball at 85 mph again, then I'd say there is something to worry about. But his splits show he can be effective vs lefties so he just needs to figure out righties...If he bombs again, maybe you move him in the pen for a specialist role.

 

Otherwise...I agree with you. Rogers will be around 4.5 in my book. Without that crisco, lil jalepeno to get the nose runnin, or vasoline...he may be done. Robertson is nothing special but a 4.5 out of your backend of the rotation is pretty decent for the AL. You didn't mention Verlander but I expect both he and Bonderman to perform well.

[rockren]

I didn't say I would take Willis over Javy. I said he is in a similar, but reversed situation. But seriously, forget the ballpark. It is a case of one bad season for Dontrelle, regardless of ballpark, to one good season for Javy. That's all I am saying. Both still have question marks coming into this season....And one other thing I never hear mentioned...Our hitter's all claim they couldn't hit because of the weather...Do you factor that into your Javy domination? Just something to think about when you hear that kind of talk about our hitters, cuz it was bs.

 

Javy and D-Train shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath right now. Javy has NEVER looked better in his career after last season. Javy had better seasons in Montreal, sure, but his stuff has never been this polished. Javy's best pitch has become his 2-seamer, which is unhittable when on with his variety of pitches. I’d even make the argument that Javy has “ace-like” stuff and is our best pitcher going into next year.

 

I have to question how often you watched Willis pitch last year because no one in their right mind would just play it off for Dontrelle to say that it was just “one bad season”. I watched Dontrelle pitch an over/under of about 10 times last year and he looked awful. Dontrelle’s fire was always there, but he just wasn’t the same pitcher. He was throwing 85/86 every time out and had NO bite to his slider….none at all. If any of these AL teams load up a lineup with righties to face him- He’s going to get shelled big time.

 

I don’t doubt for a second that Detroit is trying to deal D-Train for pretty much anything right now. But the Tigers know that they’re stuck with him.

Edited December 7, 2007 by rockren

[rockren]

Javy did look better but not much. I still want to say he had like a 4.8 era in the 2nd half.

 

He had a 3.8 ERA Post-All Star actually. Take into account that we were one of the worst teams in baseball with perhaps the worst defense and color me impressed.

[Chombi]

He had a 3.8 ERA Post-All Star actually. Take into account that we were one of the worst teams in baseball with perhaps the worst defense and color me impressed.

 

Bulls***. In 2006?

 

I don't have ur qoute in front of me right now but I am fairly certain you had said he was pitching better in the 2nd half of 06'. That is what that comment was towards.

 

And no I didn't see many of Willis games. Maybe 10. Like I said, his stuff was bad. I've mentioned it in numerous threads. Nothing had bite and he had no "out pitch"

 

It's hard to just up and lose stuff though. Usually there is something behind it. It's rare someone just wakes up after several years of success and in their mid 20's to just having nothing. Usually it's mechanics or an injury. Rare his god given ability just stops.

[Chombi]

Javy and D-Train shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath right now. Javy has NEVER looked better in his career after last season. Javy had better seasons in Montreal, sure, but his stuff has never been this polished. Javy's best pitch has become his 2-seamer, which is unhittable when on with his variety of pitches. I’d even make the argument that Javy has “ace-like” stuff and is our best pitcher going into next year.

 

I have to question how often you watched Willis pitch last year because no one in their right mind would just play it off for Dontrelle to say that it was just “one bad season”. I watched Dontrelle pitch an over/under of about 10 times last year and he looked of awful. Dontrelle’s fire was always there, but he just wasn’t the same pitcher. He was throwing 85/86 every time out and had NO bite to his slider….none at all. If any of these AL teams load up a lineup with righties to face him- He’s going to get shelled big time.

 

I don’t doubt for a second that Detroit is trying to deal D-Train for pretty much anything right now. But the Tigers know that they’re stuck with him.

 

Again. There is something you are not comprehending or I am not stressing enough. I am not sure what it is.

 

I am not saying we compare them. I am saying compare their situations. Regardless of how great Javy has looked, he needs to prove it again. Contreras dominated and never looked better in the 2nd half of 05-1st half of 06'. Everyone was talking about how unhittable he was and everything else. How'd that pan out this year???

 

So again. I am not comparing the two players. I am comparing their situations. One had a brilliant year and hopefully has moved his game to the level his talent suggests. Which as you pointed out is Ace material. Willis on the other hand showed Ace material a lot throughout his early career and has stumbled a couple times. Last year wass the worse and as you've said...his stuff was bad.

[rockren]

Bulls***. In 2006?

 

I don't have ur qoute in front of me right now but I am fairly certain you had said he was pitching better in the 2nd half of 06'. That is what that comment was towards.

 

And no I didn't see many of Willis games. Maybe 10. Like I said, his stuff was bad. I've mentioned it in numerous threads. Nothing had bite and he had no "out pitch"

 

It's hard to just up and lose stuff though. Usually there is something behind it. It's rare someone just wakes up after several years of success and in their mid 20's to just having nothing. Usually it's mechanics or an injury. Rare his god given ability just stops.

 

Well I thought you were talking about '07....but either way what does '06 matter?

 

Is it rare for a pitcher to just lose it? Nope. Not in D-Train's case. D-Train really has only thrown two pitches his entire career. He was long projected to be a long reliever even after his big rookie campaign. Will D-Train get his velocity back? Probably. But he's still been figured out.

 

Mentioning Javy and Dontrelle in the same breath after last season is crazy.

[rockren]

Contreras dominated and never looked better in the 2nd half of 05-1st half of 06'. Everyone was talking about how unhittable he was and everything else. How'd that pan out this year???

 

He had a pinched nerve in his back and he's old.

 

Javy is a pitcher that gets people out with his stuff. Dontrelle tries to deceive people with his wind-up. They're worlds apart.

 

[Chombi]

Well I thought you were talking about '07....but either way what does '06 matter?

 

Is it rare for a pitcher to just lose it? Nope. Not in D-Train's case. D-Train really has only thrown two pitches his entire career. He was long projected to be a long reliever even after his big rookie campaign. Will D-Train get his velocity back? Probably. But he's still been figured out.

 

Mentioning Javy and Dontrelle in the same breath after last season is crazy.

 

Ok. You're deliberately just trying to piss me off right?

 

I didn't bring up the 2nd half of 06'. You did. I responded to it. You said Javy starting pitching very well in 06', not me. I said he improved but didn't really have mind blowing numbers or numbers near 07'.

 

So because the guy had 2 pitches, it means he can lose 8 mph on his fastball? Lose break on his offspeed? That makes no sense. And ask the lefties about how to hit Dontrelle since he has been figured out. Or ask anyteam in baseball prior to 07'.

 

Lets see. Decrease in velocity. No bite on pitches means that hitters have figured him out. Interesting. Even though you admit those first two occured. It was moreso just teams figuring him out.

 

You're right. It's totally crazy. Dontrelle can regain his ability but he will continue his struggles. Meanwhile Javy potentially stumbled upon his ability finally meeting the numbers to go with it and we should crown him. Well, if you have Denny Green's number then get him on the phone.

 

Like I said a million times now. Dontrelle has a more proven track record the last few seasons. Javy does not. Javy can easily pull a Contreras on us (which you convenietly avoided in your post) next season and all I am saying is to wait and see how he does.

 

I hope Willis bombs. I just won't mark it down until I see it happen. Same with Javy. I've gotten my hopes up for a lot of guys on this team before and it is usually followed with a letdown.

 

You questioned whether I watched Willis pitch. I am starting to question if you have ever watched baseball.

[Chombi]

He had a pinched nerve in his back and he's old.

 

Javy is a pitcher that gets people out with his stuff. Dontrelle tries to deceive people with his wind-up. They're worlds apart.

 

I don't argue that Dontrelle uses his motion and delivery to throw people off. I also don't argue that Javy has incredible stuff.

 

What I do argue is facts. Factually speaking, Dontrelle still performed very well in this league the last few years prior to 07'. Javy on the other hand, did not. He has a good season here and a good one there. Thats it. But using your logic, we should write Willis off because you watched him pitch 10 times and noticed his stuff was way down...Way down and off but it had more to do with teams figuring him out. Wait, teams made up of just solely right handed hitters. Cuz you saw that lefties figured him out right??? Just wanted to make sure we agreed that a .130 ba or whatever was figuring out a pitcher.

 

O and we should give Javy the Cy Young because you've never seen him pitch and his one good season in his last few. That's accurate right? It's not like Javy has a track record for pitching very well for bad teams right? It has nothing to do with that I am sure.

 

Mind you, all I said was I want Javy to repeat his season for me to believe it was legit. I also said I just want to see if Dontrelle has his velocity back because that could show that maybe he was just hurt or had mechanics problems. That is all. I just don't want to write the guy off as a bum, and I don't want to get my hopes up for Javy like i did for Jose last season.

 

Instead you tried to prove some weird points and just not let it go that facts are what matters, and factually, you have no clue what you are talking about.

Edited December 7, 2007 by Chombi

[rockren]

Ok. You're deliberately just trying to piss me off right?

 

I didn't bring up the 2nd half of 06'. You did. I responded to it. You said Javy starting pitching very well in 06', not me. I said he improved but didn't really have mind blowing numbers or numbers near 07'.

 

Actually I never said anything about '06.....I was referring to '07.

[rockren]

Javy can easily pull a Contreras on us(which you convenietly avoided in your post) next season and all I am saying is to wait and see how he does.

 

Or you can refer to post #421.....either way I don't care what you do really.

Edited December 7, 2007 by rockren