The joke that is KW and the White Sox

[nitetrain8601]

The pessimism on this board is getting laughable.

 

And to think, I was a pessimist on this board. Probably the biggest one. Damn, I've been easily surpassed by at least half the posters here.

[Princess Dye]

I think people are just really upset about Fields. Honestly, the possibility that Crede is headed out in a trade in one month still looms. It's not that much to lose sleep over.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2008 by Princess Dye

[Steve9347]

Unlike previous years there are players that can replace him if he fails which he might. There are at least two other guys that can step right in. For the 2008 season the higher ceilings guys are Crede and Uribe. They will both be on short leashes and will be DFA'd should they suck. They are getting the first shot. What is the big f***ing deal with everyone. It is not like Fields, Ramirez and Richar even that Bourgoise fellow are being released. I like that there are options over Erstad and Andy Gonzalez this year.

 

That fact that people are complaining that Phillips was sent down over releasing Hall is absolutely laughable and borders are insanity. Those people will bith to b****. If Hall sucks he can be DFA'd and Phillips can be recalled. Again what is the big f***ing deal.

 

None of Crede, Uribe, Hall, Fields, Phillips, and whoever the golden child to play second over Uribe will be the reason this team loses as they guys are not expected to carry the team. It will come down to Konerko, Thome, Dye, Swisher, the bullpen, Contreras and one of Danks or Floyd to live up to expectations.

You make a valid argument at top. I care much less about the Crede situation than Uribe, as we know his ceiling is a .250 average with a ton of strikeouts and a .290 OBP. I feel he should be backing up if we have to have him on the roster. He'd be an incredibly useful guy to backup at 2B/SS, and I'd rather see him in that role than starting. Ramirez has impressed, and should get regular at bats, not be a backup.

 

As for Crede, whatever, I think stunting Fields' growth hurts the franchise more than letting Crede go for a bag of peanuts.

 

As for Phillips, I don't care in the least that he was sent down. If Hall is actually healthy, which we'll find out soon enough, he can be incredibly valuable to this team. If he's hurting like he was last year, Phillips will be up soon enough.

[Princess Dye]

Ramirez has impressed, and should get regular at bats, not be a backup.

 

If Uribe was an Ozzie favorite, that'd be something to worry about.

 

But there's no doubt that if Ramirez picks up where he left off in ST, he'll get all the at bats he wants. Richar also will get every opportunity he wants, if the position is still up in the air when he returns.

Edited March 26, 2008 by Princess Dye

[thedoctor]

I think people are just really upset about Fields. Honestly, the possibility that Crede is headed out in a trade in one month still looms. It's not that much to lose sleep over.

 

and i can understand that. i just don't see fields being "ruined" by playing a month or two in triple-A. if he is the player many think he can be, he'll be back and he'll be fine. if playing for another month or two in the minors ruins him, he probably wasn't going to be that good anyway.

[Princess Dye]

and i can understand that. i just don't see fields being "ruined" by playing a month or two in triple-A. if he is the player many think he can be, he'll be back and he'll be fine. if playing for another month or two in the minors ruins him, he probably wasn't going to be that good anyway.

 

I too am of the camp that doesnt see Fields' progress being automatically hurt by having to go down there. Right now, we have a strong defensive 3b, which the staff needs. Offense from either 3b is still a wild card.

 

Additionally, the only way he's not up here in a few months is if we're a really good team.

Edited March 26, 2008 by Princess Dye

[Big Hurtin]

... Crede and Uribe. They will both be on short leashes and will be DFA'd should they suck.

 

 

That's something that keeps getting said, but I don't believe it. Hopefully they'll hit, making the point moot.

[Princess Dye]

That's something that keeps getting said, but I don't believe it. Hopefully they'll hit, making the point moot.

 

There's no reason to believe Uribe wont have a short leash.

 

Especially considering Richar and what he has done already in his career. Uribe's OBP the last two years has been lower than Richar's last year.

 

 

 

 

 

Also (and this doesnt target your specific post at all).... people who decry the farm system being decimated should appreciate the possibilities of Uribe and Crede being showcased and being exchanged for prospects. Dumping them from the onset does nothing unless you really think the guys behind them are way way way better in the present.

Edited March 26, 2008 by Princess Dye

[witesoxfan]

I like the moves the Sox made and I think we will be very competitive in our division. The Uribe situation is the only thing that puzzles me. Maybe they were trying to work out a trade with the Orioles for Roberts? I don't know and obviously it's all speculation. I don't see that Uribe is a bad option though. I have said before that it seems we value our own players so little and are willing to dump them for a class A prospect at the drop of a hat. It amazes me that the feeling seems to be that such a band of 25-40 misfits can't even compete against a group of high school kids. Let's just sit back and support the team and enjoy baseball 2008. I think KW has done the best he can without just giving away players for nothing in return. We are not in a rebuilding phase and have a lot of real high caliber talent.

 

When people say that for Josh Fields or Carlos Quentin or whoever else, sure. Hell, even Joe Crede. When it comes to Juan Uribe, you apparently still don't understand how bad of a ball player he was. As I recall, he was one of the worst 5 regular offensive players in the league last year. A .678 OPS over the course of a full season, and one of the few players who was worse than him - Omar Vizquel - is like 42 and was another potential candidate at one time to take over SS for the White Sox (more trivial information than anything).

 

Juan Uribe is bad and he should be gone.

 

Yeah, I guess everyone's complaints get thrown out the window when opening day comes and you sit and watch the first game saying "maybe this team is good, maybe I was getting all worked up over nothing. I'm sorry KW, you're smarter then me."

 

No, it's because White Sox baseball is f***ing awesome and there's no better feeling in the world than cracking open a beer and watching opening day, regardless of whether the team is going to be terrible or amazing. It has nothing to do with KW.

[Big Hurtin]

There's no reason to believe Uribe wont have a short leash.

 

Especially considering Richar and what he has done already in his career. Uribe's OBP the last two years has been lower than Richar's last year.

Also (and this doesnt target your specific post at all).... people who decry the farm system being decimated should appreciate the possibilities of Uribe and Crede being showcased and being exchanged for prospects. Dumping them from the onset does nothing unless you really think the guys behind them are way way way better.

 

What I'm saying, is thay won't be DFA'd (cut). If they were to get something via a trade, they would have to show something positive for someone to want them. Yeah, Uribe will share time, but I think he'll get the majority of ABs at 2B.

 

[lostfan]

No, it's because White Sox baseball is f***ing awesome and there's no better feeling in the world* than cracking open a beer and watching opening day, regardless of whether the team is going to be terrible or amazing.

* - watching the Bears win for a change b/c it's so rare

 

Other than that, yeah

[lostfan]

I personally feel that the absolute best from Anderson this year still puts us in the familiar position of having the 345 bashers coming up with no one on second.

The "absolute best from Anderson" I guess implies that he is playing to his full potential, which would mean he was an All-Star caliber CF. The problem with him has been that he couldn't play to his potential. If he could, we'd have no problem.

[iamshack]

Well, unfortunately this has turned into another "trash the organization" thread over the fact that Crede and Uribe are getting the starting nods.

 

But I'm going to try and counter what Steve initially seemed to be saying in this thread, which is "What the hell was/is the plan this offseason?"

 

In order to try and understand what the plan is/was, you've got to look at how the offseason unfolded, as opposed to what the result is now.

 

1) First of all, for all the Uribe griping, I think it's fairly clear that the organization, as well as the fanbase, knew that a different shortstop would greatly increase the chances for success. While I have never been completely sold on the Garland/Cabrera trade, as I would have liked to acquire a younger ss with some upside for Garland (think Chin Lung Hu), Kenny did go out and acquire one of the better shortstops in the game, with at least some intention of exploring a long-term contract with him.

 

So he was clearly addressing a major need there. Was it the best idea to do at the expense of Jon? I'm not certain, but with the fanbase clamoring for Buehrle to be resigned last year (as he was), and Vazquez having a deal in place, it was fairly clear Jon was not going to be resigned. But considering most of the people complaining around here lately don't believe we have any chance to compete this season, I really don't see how it matters.

 

2) We clearly needed some OF depth as we were looking at having a group of OF's including Dye/Owens/Anderson/Sweeney. Now, recalling the uncertainty of what we had in Owens, the fact that it would have been a huge gamble to count on Anderson to do what he has done this spring, and Sweeney's lack of power and ability to get to an inside fastball, I can only imagine the disappointment and venom spewed around here had other options not been acquired.

 

So Kenny goes out and gets Quentin from AZ in what was thought by most people in baseball to be a pretty solid deal. He gets Swisher from Oakland, in a more controversial deal. But Swisher's acquisition filled a second need- and one that was harped on constantly around here for the last few years- OBP. So while we looted our own farm system a bit to acquire him, Swisher will be here, at a reasonable price, for several more years, and he adds something this team badly lacked, and that is someone with plate discipline that reaches base at an extremely high clip over the course of his career. He also appears to be an extremely good clubhouse player (even Frank Thomas loved him).

 

Kenny then signs a Cuban exile with some raw tools, but who has been hitting in a league many scouts compare to A-level ball. The guy signs for an extremely cost-effective contract, one that, should he never really pan out as anything other than a utility player, would not hurt the club. This move is probably one centered around adding depth to our recently depleted system and the lack of bench players (as Mackowiak, Cintron are gone), and a gamble that his raw tools might actually manifest themselves into something approaching a player Ramirez is sometimes compared to, Alfonso Soriano.

 

Then what happens? Spring Training arrives. Brian Anderson comes in with a chip on his shoulder and a new attitude. He tears the cover off the ball as well as any player in baseball this spring. Alexei Ramirez shows that he can, at the very least, hit major league fastballs- and hit them hard- to all fields. He shows a ton of athleticism and is now being reported on nationally as potentially one of the major "finds" of the offseason. Quentin, though still recovering from a shoulder injury, starts off slowly. Yet the last few weeks of spring, he begins to find his stroke and shows the organization that he still may be that player who was so well-regarded two years ago. And then of course there is Jerry Owens, who has himself had a nice spring but has battled injuries and needs to go on the DL to get healthy for what is a very long season.

 

So now we have Dye/Swisher/Anderson/Quentin/Ramirez and Owens when he returns from injury. Suddenly we have a glut of OF's and people are honestly going to complain? Would we rather be in the spot we thought we were 3-4 months ago?

 

3) Second base was a somewhat uncertain spot and one most hoped Richar would win in ST. However, he shows up late because of visa problems, then struggles with back injuries once he does start playing. He, obviously, could not win the 2b job. So that means it's down to Uribe, who is under contract this year, and despite what some have suggested, has been a very solid defensive player his entire career, and Alexei Ramirez, who is still learning the position, as he was a natural shortstop in Cuba.

 

Which direction to go? Do you sit a guy who you know will be very dependable defensively, especially considering you have question marks on your pitching staff and some guys who tend to walk some people (#'s 3,4,5 in your rotation), or do you start the Cuban upstart who is raw defensively, but shows an ability to play several different positions? Or, you could attempt to trade Uribe, but then you are depending on Ramirez being able to fill the bill, at least until Richar comes back from a back injury (and you know how troubling back injuries can be).

 

I'm not agreeing with everything that was done, but I think it is important to look at things as they occurred, chronologically, to get a better understanding of how things unfolded.

[fathom]

I like the post above speaking about our outfield depth, as well as the versatility Ramirez brings. Good job shack

[Leonard Zelig]

Can we let the team play some games that actually count before we call them a joke and fire the GM?

[thedoctor]

Well, unfortunately this has turned into another "trash the organization" thread over the fact that Crede and Uribe are getting the starting nods.

 

But I'm going to try and counter what Steve initially seemed to be saying in this thread, which is "What the hell was/is the plan this offseason?"

 

In order to try and understand what the plan is/was, you've got to look at how the offseason unfolded, as opposed to what the result is now.

 

1) First of all, for all the Uribe griping, I think it's fairly clear that the organization, as well as the fanbase, knew that a different shortstop would greatly increase the chances for success. While I have never been completely sold on the Garland/Cabrera trade, as I would have liked to acquire a younger ss with some upside for Garland (think Chin Lung Hu), Kenny did go out and acquire one of the better shortstops in the game, with at least some intention of exploring a long-term contract with him.

 

So he was clearly addressing a major need there. Was it the best idea to do at the expense of Jon? I'm not certain, but with the fanbase clamoring for Buehrle to be resigned last year (as he was), and Vazquez having a deal in place, it was fairly clear Jon was not going to be resigned. But considering most of the people complaining around here lately don't believe we have any chance to compete this season, I really don't see how it matters.

 

2) We clearly needed some OF depth as we were looking at having a group of OF's including Dye/Owens/Anderson/Sweeney. Now, recalling the uncertainty of what we had in Owens, the fact that it would have been a huge gamble to count on Anderson to do what he has done this spring, and Sweeney's lack of power and ability to get to an inside fastball, I can only imagine the disappointment and venom spewed around here had other options not been acquired.

 

So Kenny goes out and gets Quentin from AZ in what was thought by most people in baseball to be a pretty solid deal. He gets Swisher from Oakland, in a more controversial deal. But Swisher's acquisition filled a second need- and one that was harped on constantly around here for the last few years- OBP. So while we looted our own farm system a bit to acquire him, Swisher will be here, at a reasonable price, for several more years, and he adds something this team badly lacked, and that is someone with plate discipline that reaches base at an extremely high clip over the course of his career. He also appears to be an extremely good clubhouse player (even Frank Thomas loved him).

 

Kenny then signs a Cuban exile with some raw tools, but who has been hitting in a league many scouts compare to A-level ball. The guy signs for an extremely cost-effective contract, one that, should he never really pan out as anything other than a utility player, would not hurt the club. This move is probably one centered around adding depth to our recently depleted system and the lack of bench players (as Mackowiak, Cintron are gone), and a gamble that his raw tools might actually manifest themselves into something approaching a player Ramirez is sometimes compared to, Alfonso Soriano.

 

Then what happens? Spring Training arrives. Brian Anderson comes in with a chip on his shoulder and a new attitude. He tears the cover off the ball as well as any player in baseball this spring. Alexei Ramirez shows that he can, at the very least, hit major league fastballs- and hit them hard- to all fields. He shows a ton of athleticism and is now being reported on nationally as potentially one of the major "finds" of the offseason. Quentin, though still recovering from a shoulder injury, starts off slowly. Yet the last few weeks of spring, he begins to find his stroke and shows the organization that he still may be that player who was so well-regarded two years ago. And then of course there is Jerry Owens, who has himself had a nice spring but has battled injuries and needs to go on the DL to get healthy for what is a very long season.

 

So now we have Dye/Swisher/Anderson/Quentin/Ramirez and Owens when he returns from injury. Suddenly we have a glut of OF's and people are honestly going to complain? Would we rather be in the spot we thought we were 3-4 months ago?

 

3) Second base was a somewhat uncertain spot and one most hoped Richar would win in ST. However, he shows up late because of visa problems, then struggles with back injuries once he does start playing. He, obviously, could not win the 2b job. So that means it's down to Uribe, who is under contract this year, and despite what some have suggested, has been a very solid defensive player his entire career, and Alexei Ramirez, who is still learning the position, as he was a natural shortstop in Cuba.

 

Which direction to go? Do you sit a guy who you know will be very dependable defensively, especially considering you have question marks on your pitching staff and some guys who tend to walk some people (#'s 3,4,5 in your rotation), or do you start the Cuban upstart who is raw defensively, but shows an ability to play several different positions? Or, you could attempt to trade Uribe, but then you are depending on Ramirez being able to fill the bill, at least until Richar comes back from a back injury (and you know how troubling back injuries can be).

 

I'm not agreeing with everything that was done, but I think it is important to look at things as they occurred, chronologically, to get a better understanding of how things unfolded.

 

great post.

[Princess Dye]

So now we have Dye/Swisher/Anderson/Quentin/Ramirez and Owens when he returns from injury. Suddenly we have a glut of OF's and people are honestly going to complain? Would we rather be in the spot we thought we were 3-4 months ago?

 

This is really excellent

[RME JICO]

You could also say we have infield depth as well. Crede, Fields, Cabrera, Ramirez, Uribe, Ozuna and Richar for 2B/SS/3B.

 

Floyd and Danks are my only real concerns this season.

[NorthSideSox72]

Floyd and Danks are my only real concerns this season.

Add Contreras and we are of the same mind.

 

[SoxWS05]

Can we let the team play some games that actually count before we call them a joke and fire the GM?

 

"No, this sport is played on paper, so Detroit and Cleveland have already won the division. Sox will be lucky to finish 3rd...no wait 4th. No use in seeing how it plays out, fire Ozzie, fire KW, bulldoze the stadium." Signed, 80% of Soxtalk.

[RME JICO]

Add Contreras and we are of the same mind.

Absolutely.

 

The one thing nice about this roster is that there is less of a drop-off when playing the Sunday lineup. Those were almost automatic losses.

[Gbubbs]

I think we all fail to understand that none of the CF, 3b and 2b questions really matter if Jose, Gavin and Danks are at least .500. I wish Uribe were gone, but, he is a good upgrade at 2b when compared to the league. Don't give me the Iguchi average 2b argument. That is gone and doesn't matter anymore. The point is, we have have a better Offense than 2005, D actually looks good as of today (Uribe, Anderson, Cabrera, Crede), but our SP is a huge ?????????. The rest just does not matter. I can't wait for Monday.http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/bringit.gif

[iamshack]

I'm a little concerned about Jose, but I also think he could come out and pitch pretty well...not like he did in 05', but possibly how he did in the beginning of 06'.

[iamshack]

I think we all fail to understand that none of the CF, 3b and 2b questions really matter if Jose, Gavin and Danks are at least .500. I wish Uribe were gone, but, he is a good upgrade at 2b when compared to the league. Don't give me the Iguchi average 2b argument. That is gone and doesn't matter anymore. The point is, we have have a better Offense than 2005, D actually looks good as of today (Uribe, Anderson, Cabrera, Crede), but our SP is a huge ?????????. The rest just does not matter. I can't wait for Monday.http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/bringit.gif

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

Obviously I want Anderson and Quentin in there getting ab's.

 

But this season is going to come down to our starting pitching, and the rest is mostly just nitpicking.

[Princess Dye]

But this season is going to come down to our starting pitching, and the rest is mostly just nitpicking.

 

like chicken and the egg though. What was Jon Garland if not for his run support? And now we miss him. One of those guys can be a Jon with the support he got in good yrs.