April 23, 200817 yr What is wrong with this guy? He is 0-5 on the year with a 5.61 ERA and a 1.79 WHIP. He is 11-18 since signing his huge deal. Is he truly done? Is it an injury or did batters just figure him out?
April 23, 200817 yr QUOTE (RME JICO @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 01:12 PM) What is wrong with this guy? He is 0-5 on the year with a 5.61 ERA and a 1.79 WHIP. He is 11-18 since signing his huge deal. Is he truly done? Is it an injury or did batters just figure him out? The hunger factor may be gone.
April 23, 200817 yr I heard his fastball is so low now, around 82-85, that his changeup doesn't have any effect. Basically he's just a two-pitch pitcher and there's enough difference between the 2 pitches that if fools no one.
April 23, 200817 yr His fastball is so slow he might as well develop a knuckleball. He either needs his fastball back or he needs to slow down his other pitches even more. I don't know if he will get that fastball back.
April 23, 200817 yr He's a shell of the Cy Young winner he was... some pitchers just lose it, hence why those huge contracts are so stupid.
April 23, 200817 yr How strange is it that two formerly dominant left-handers(Dontrelle Willis and Barry Zito)with very similar pitching motions and early-career results have fallen off their games so much? 5 years ago these two pitchers were the premier lefthanders in the game
April 23, 200817 yr I guess I'll be the one to bring this up also....I also find it interesting that his peak years were in Oakland shortly after the time that Jason Giambi's peak years happened, and his last really great years were 2002-2003. Right before the start of PED Suspensions. Maybe it's not fair to bring that up with every guy who falls off a cliff after 2003, but that's the bed the owners and MLBPA made when they let the problem fester for so long.
April 23, 200817 yr QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 08:18 PM) I guess I'll be the one to bring this up also....I also find it interesting that his peak years were in Oakland shortly after the time that Jason Giambi's peak years happened, and his last really great years were 2002-2003. Right before the start of PED Suspensions. Maybe it's not fair to bring that up with every guy who falls off a cliff after 2003, but that's the bed the owners and MLBPA made when they let the problem fester for so long. Guilty until proven innocent -- isn't that the motto? U-S-A! U-S-A!
April 23, 200817 yr Barry Zito seems to have lost some of his feel for his stuff... Barry Zito has lost some movement on his pitches... Barry Zito's control seems to have taken a bump... Ouch
April 23, 200817 yr QUOTE (CWSGuy406 @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 12:24 PM) Guilty until proven innocent -- isn't that the motto? U-S-A! U-S-A! In MLB, I think you have to consider it with every single person. Certainly can't prove a thing, but I defy anyone to prove to me he's clean. You can't, because the bastards weren't testing and won't release the results of the first round of testing. Earth-S-A! Earth-S-A!
April 23, 200817 yr QUOTE (Shadows @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 03:29 PM) Barry Zito seems to have lost some of his feel for his stuff... Barry Zito has lost some movement on his pitches... Barry Zito's control seems to have taken a bump... Ouch Awesome
April 23, 200817 yr Author QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 01:13 PM) How strange is it that two formerly dominant left-handers(Dontrelle Willis and Barry Zito)with very similar pitching motions and early-career results have fallen off their games so much? 5 years ago these two pitchers were the premier lefthanders in the game Here is a really interesting article about pitchers who pitch a lot in one year (over 230IP) and never recover: http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=399816 Alex Fernandez, Pat Hentgen, Zito, Willis and Sabathia are all mentioned. Zito blurb: Lefthander Barry Zito was 24 when he had 235 1/3 innings and won a Cy Young with Oakland in 2002. His effectiveness gradually has decreased since, and Zito is only 11-16 with a 4.55 ERA in his last 36 starts with San Francisco.
April 23, 200817 yr QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 08:32 PM) In MLB, I think you have to consider it with every single person. Certainly can't prove a thing, but I defy anyone to prove to me he's clean. You can't, because the bastards weren't testing and won't release the results of the first round of testing. And...? The burden of proof is on you, the accuser, not me (or Zito, for that matter) -- as you (basically) say yourself with the first part of your second line there. Whatever -- we've had this discussion before and it is what it is. You -- and if I say anything false, feel free to correct me -- fall into the camp of people who want to know who did what and when they did it, and as such hold a skepticism to a good amount of players of the past decade who've seen a precipitous performance drop. I may or may not hold that same skepticism -- I'm not really sure, to be quite frank -- but I don't really care either way. That's not to say that I advocate PED use, but rather -- I understand there was a good amount of PED use in this era, but I'd rather not know specifics. Nor am I going to point to "well, he MUST be off the PEDs" (I know you weren't that explicit and I'm exaggerating a bit here) if a guy sees a somewhat strange drop in performance. I'd say with Zito you could see this coming -- not to this extent, but putting everything together, did anyone really think it was smart to give Zito 7 years, $130 (or whatever it was) million?
April 23, 200817 yr QUOTE (RME JICO @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 12:37 PM) Here is a really interesting article about pitchers who pitch a lot in one year (over 230IP) and never recover: http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=399816 Alex Fernandez, Pat Hentgen, Zito, Willis and Sabathia are all mentioned. Zito blurb: Mark threw 239 innings in '02, 230 in '03, and 245 in '04, and then managed to brilliantly pitch 260 total in '05. He (finally) lost velocity and got hammered in '06, but had a really nice bounce-back year in '07. Looks like a lot of it depends on the individual.
April 23, 200817 yr Author QUOTE (WCSox @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 01:59 PM) Mark threw 239 innings in '02, 230 in '03, and 245 in '04, and then managed to brilliantly pitch 260 total in '05. He (finally) lost velocity and got hammered in '06, but had a really nice bounce-back year in '07. Looks like a lot of it depends on the individual. The jury is still out on Mark. He bounced back in time to sign a contract, just like Zito did the last year with the A's. Hopefully Mark does not fall into that category.
April 23, 200817 yr QUOTE (CWSGuy406 @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 04:41 PM) And...? The burden of proof is on you, the accuser, not me (or Zito, for that matter) -- as you (basically) say yourself with the first part of your second line there. Whatever -- we've had this discussion before and it is what it is. You -- and if I say anything false, feel free to correct me -- fall into the camp of people who want to know who did what and when they did it, and as such hold a skepticism to a good amount of players of the past decade who've seen a precipitous performance drop. I may or may not hold that same skepticism -- I'm not really sure, to be quite frank -- but I don't really care either way. That's not to say that I advocate PED use, but rather -- I understand there was a good amount of PED use in this era, but I'd rather not know specifics. Nor am I going to point to "well, he MUST be off the PEDs" (I know you weren't that explicit and I'm exaggerating a bit here) if a guy sees a somewhat strange drop in performance. I'd say with Zito you could see this coming -- not to this extent, but putting everything together, did anyone really think it was smart to give Zito 7 years, $130 (or whatever it was) million? This is baseball, not a court of law. Nobody's going to prove that a lot of the steroid freaks cheated, but plenty of them aren't getting into the HOF because of their obvious use.
April 23, 200817 yr Honestly, it's just that he can't throw his fastball more than 86 mph anymore, or at least not this early in the year. He'll get it going a bit better in the summer months, but now hitters can just sit on his curveball and react to his fastball.
April 23, 200817 yr QUOTE (Shadows @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 03:29 PM) Barry Zito seems to have lost some of his feel for his stuff... Barry Zito has lost some movement on his pitches... Barry Zito's control seems to have taken a bump... Ouch Best post ever.
April 24, 200817 yr QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 10:33 PM) This is baseball, not a court of law. Oh, okay, so that only applies when we're in a courtroom. Thanks for that.
April 24, 200817 yr QUOTE (Brian @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 04:50 PM) The few innings I have seen this year, he has no control. Walking lots of guys. I don't think that's it. Lots of guys have started the year wilder than normal. It's just shaking off the rust. Zito's always been wild, and this year he's only slightly worse than last year (4.2 bb/9 ip vs about 3.8 last year), which in turn is only a little wilder than his norm (3.6 bb/9 ip over his career). His strikeouts are down and hitters are just beating the hell out of him. That's about it. He's probably been a little unlucky (I don't know where to find babip, but 34 hits in about 26 ip suggests it may be high). But still, his pitches have nothing. Good luck with that, SF.
April 24, 200817 yr QUOTE (Shadows @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 04:29 PM) Barry Zito seems to have lost some of his feel for his stuff... Barry Zito has lost some movement on his pitches... Barry Zito's control seems to have taken a bump... Ouch
April 24, 200817 yr QUOTE (CWSGuy406 @ Apr 23, 2008 -> 08:19 PM) Oh, okay, so that only applies when we're in a courtroom. Thanks for that. It doesn't apply here, that's for sure.
April 24, 200817 yr QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Apr 24, 2008 -> 01:12 AM) It doesn't apply here, that's for sure. If you're in that camp, that's fine. "She's a witch!"
April 24, 200817 yr I have a feeling that there were a lot of Oakland A's players who were on performance enhancers in the past.
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