The Democrat Thread

[Balta1701]

Here's a different way to phrase it:

There are at least four ideas in the health-care reform debate that have the potential to deliver on long-term savings....

 

 

There's the theory that comparative effectiveness review -- particularly when combined with a new IT infrastructure that could eventually help guide physician decisions -- will cut down on unnecessary treatments and allow us to bring high-spending regions of the country into sync with their low-spending brethren.

 

There's the idea that the Independent Medicare Advisory Council will be the locus for a continual process of Medicare reform that will begin to bring down costs in the Medicare program, and also create a sort of "best practices" laboratory where experiments can be attempted and the best efforts can be further developed.

 

There's the argument for the public plan, and in particular the public plan with Medicare powers, that implies that a large purchaser in the center of the system could bargain better discounts with providers.

 

There's the argument that the health insurance exchange will grow to become the primary insurance market and that as insurers begin competing on grounds of cost and quality -- as opposed to risk selection -- that efficiencies will emerge and spending will drift downward, and over time, the employer-based market, which is responsible for many of the costly problems in the system, will begin to migrate toward the exchange.

 

All of these are speculative. But that's true for any cost-saving measures that aren't either single-payer or some radical turn toward the free market that rips away subsidies for the poor and benefits for the elderly.

[kapkomet]

Here's a different way to phrase it:

Ok, I'll come back to this with a reality of discussion in a little while. This is all a sham. Meanwhile I have a story to tell that I'm going to go post in the other health care thread, you all will laugh - hard.

 

[Balta1701]

Yeah Obama straight up broke all of his "transparency" promises. No other way to put it. They're probably promises he never should've made and he realized that once he got into office.

The White House released that list tonight. It was under threat of a lawsuit, but the Cheney administration fought that exact lawsuit for years.

[mr_genius]

It was under threat of a lawsuit, but the Cheney administration fought that exact lawsuit for years.

 

glad you admit Obama is turning out to be no better than Cheney

[KipWellsFan]

Isn't he pointing out that he's doing a better job of transparency?

[BigSqwert]

Bravo Georgie. Excellent policy.

 

Teenage pregnancies and syphilis have risen sharply among a generation of American school girls who were urged to avoid sex before marriage under George Bush's evangelically-driven education policy, according to a new report by the US's major public health body.

 

LINK

[Balta1701]

On the whole "Birther" thing...yeah.

 

The Daily Show With Jon Stewart	Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c
The Born Identity
www.thedailyshow.com
Daily Show Full Episodes Political Humor Joke of the Day

[lostfan]

Is there anybody else who is amused by birthers? Or, more accurately, reading the delusional birther conspiracies get ripped to shreds?

[HuskyCaucasian]

Is there anybody else who is amused by birthers? Or, more accurately, reading the delusional birther conspiracies get ripped to shreds?

McCain Campaign Investigated, Dismissed Obama Citizenship Rumors

In the final months of the 2008 presidential race, Sen. John McCain’s (R-Ariz.) campaign learned of a lawsuit filed in Pennsylvania that asked the state to strip Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) of the Democratic nomination on suspicion that he was not an American citizen. The complaint for declaratory and injunctive relief was filed by Phil Berg, a former deputy state attorney general who left government in 1990 for a series of gadfly political campaigns. His last round of notoriety had come when he filed RICO complaints against George W. Bush, Saddam Hussein and multiple members of the Bush administration for “accountability” for the 9/11 attacks. Still, Berg’s complaint had gotten glancing local media attention, and the Democratic National Committee’s counsel had filed a motion to dismiss it. One lawyer who was doing some work for the campaign was tasked with reading Berg’s lawsuit and gauging its chances of success.

 

“The conversation was along the lines of ‘this is idiotic, but explain to me why,’” said the lawyer, who spoke under condition of anonymity to TWI. “I looked at whether the lawsuit was going to be dismissed. I said yes.”

 

Berg’s main problem was the one that has bedeviled the the small, but growing, number of lawyers and amateur attorneys who have filed frivolous lawsuits against President Obama on the “question” of his American citizenship. He and they have run up against the doctrine of standing, which requires plaintiffs to prove that they have been or will be harmed by the law that they’re challenging. Like the people who challenged McCain’s citizenship in 2008 and 2000, or the people who challenged Dick Cheney’s right to run for vice president because he, like George W. Bush, resided in Texas, “birther” plaintiffs have failed again and again to get their cases heard because they lack standing.

 

“We monitored the progress of these lawsuits against the Obama campaign,” said Trevor Potter, a Washington attorney who served as general counsel to the 2008 and 2000 McCain presidential campaigns. “The McCain campaign faced a series of lawsuits like this, too, alleging that he could not be president because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Both campaigns took the position that these plaintiffs lacked standing.”

..................

While they ruled out any chance of the ‘birther’ lawsuits holding up in court, lawyers for the McCain campaign did check into the rumors about Obama’s birth and the assertions made by Berg and others. “To the extent that we could, we looked into the substantive side of these allegations,” said Potter. “We never saw any evidence that then-Senator Obama had been born outside of the United States. We saw rumors, but nothing that could be sourced to evidence. There were no statements and no documents that suggested he was born somewhere else. On the other side, there was proof that he was born in Hawaii. There was a certificate issued by the state’s Department of Health, and the responsible official in the state saying that he had personally seen the original certificate. There was a birth announcement in the Honolulu Advertiser, which would be very difficult to invent or plant 47 years in advance.”

[BigSqwert]

I think it was highly likely that a poor white girl from Kansas flew all the way to Kenya to give birth to a child and then immediately fly back afterward, have a fake birth certificate created and then wait over 40 years for this child to win the Presidential election so that he can bring down the USA.

[HuskyCaucasian]

I think it was highly likely that a poor white girl from Kansas flew all the way to Kenya to give birth to a child and then immediately fly back afterward, have a fake birth certificate created and then wait over 40 years for this child to win the Presidential election so that he can bring down the USA.

^^^^^^^^^^

[StrangeSox]

Why stories about Obama's birth certificate will never die.

 

For believers, it works like this: So what if Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii's Department of Health, released a statement saying she has verified that the state has the original birth certificate on record? So what if she said separately that the certification looks identical to one she was issued for her own Hawaii birth certificate? Why didn't her statement specify Obama's birthplace? So what if a Hawaii Health Department spokeswoman later clarified that Fukino meant that Obama was born in Hawaii? So what if researchers for FactCheck.org actually saw the physical copy of the certification and debunked much of the key "evidence" supposedly proving that the image posted online is a forgery? They're not really independent. They're funded by the Annenberg Public Policy Center, and Obama once (with Bill Ayers, no less) ran an entirely unrelated program that happened to be paid for with money donated by Walter Annenberg. And on and on and on.

 

If the long-form birth certificate were released, with its unequivocal identification of Hawaii as Obama's place of birth, the cycle would almost certainly continue. Rush Limbaugh already suggested that Obama's trip to Hawaii to see his ailing grandmother, who died not long after, was somehow connected to the controversy. Others, like Michael Savage, followed Limbaugh's lead, saying Obama was going to Hawaii to alter the record.

 

Not surprisingly, almost all of the people who've been most prominent in pushing this story have a history of conspiracist thought. There's Jerome Corsi, who's best known as the co-author of the book that launched the Swift boat vets; he's a chief proponent of the claim that the government is secretly planning to form a "North American Union" with Canada and Mexico. Philip Berg, who filed the lawsuit that had until now drawn the most public attention, is a 9/11 Truther. Andy Martin, who's credited with starting the myth that Obama is a Muslim and has been intimately involved in the birth certificate mess as well, was denied admission to the Illinois bar because of a psychiatric evaluation that showed he had "moderately severe character defect manifested by well-documented ideation with a paranoid flavor and a grandiose character." He also has a long history of anti-Semitism. Robert Schulz, who's responsible for the ads in the Tribune, is a fairly notorious tax protester. In 2007, a federal judge ordered Schulz to shutter his Web site because he and his organization were, in the words of the Justice Department's Tax Division, using the site to promote "a nationwide tax-fraud scheme."

Edited July 24, 2009 by StrangeSox

[HuskyCaucasian]

I think it was highly likely that a poor white girl from Kansas flew all the way to Kenya to give birth to a child and then immediately fly back afterward, have a fake birth certificate created and then wait over 40 years for this child to win the Presidential election so that he can bring down the USA.

Those Muslim terrorists are a tricky folk.

[StrangeSox]

There's an endless number of crazy theories behind Obama right now. Ayers wrote his book/ funded his schooling, secret Ayatollahs paid for his school, he's the anti-christ, he's Kenyan, he's a British citizen, he went to [bad place with evil Muslims] on fake passports, etc.

 

Its reached the size and scope of 9/11 troofers.

[HuskyCaucasian]

On a side note: Was George W. Bush a legitimate citizen? I've never seen his birth certificate. What's to say Barbera didnt cross the Mexican boarder and give birth in Mexico? I've never seen evidence to prove he is American born.

[StrangeSox]

I think its pretty conclusive that W's claim of never having left the country prior to his presidency was accurate.

[HuskyCaucasian]

I think its pretty conclusive that W's claim of never having left the country prior to his presidency was accurate.

How do we know? I need proof. Gotta have it on paper. Anything could be true. I need the proof.

[BigSqwert]

I think its pretty conclusive that W's claim of never having left the country prior to his presidency was accurate.

[lostfan]

I need Michael Savage to show documentation that he is not a Communist spy here to subvert America's way of life. I also need to personally verify the legitimacy of whatever he provides.

[lostfan]

Oh and lol how in the f*** can you alter your own records? Nobody has the authority to do that, it doesn't matter who it is. And even if you're in a position where you can actually do that (i.e. you work for the state dept. of vital records, Social Security, etc.), if you do it and get caught that's an easy way to get fired and possibly have charges pressed against you.

[lostfan]

http://www.palinferpresident.com/

[bmags]

you guys wanna post your favorite birther comments?

 

"About the CIA lying to Congress since 9/11, and Cheney ordering it: Well, obviously it's Condit & Levy, right? The non-trial going on right now? But! Since Pelosi & Reid ARE traitors, what would you expect the CIA to do, but lie to them.

Until...It's time for the Royal Flush. One little rug pulled out from The Big O... His non-eligibility. Of course, if 9/11 had been 2008, as they'd originally planned, the overwhelming emotional surge would have made O the World Dictator1

So... Maybe the Bushs DID make the Trade Towers happen? SO MANY things they've done first & watched them fail, depriving Commies from using same as The Big Power Grab.

I should know: My dad was the former Stasi East German General & Communist, Markus Wolf.

Nhunk! http:/www.rickhyatt.freeservers.com"

[mr_genius]

"About the CIA lying to Congress since 9/11, and Cheney ordering it: Well, obviously it's Condit & Levy, right? The non-trial going on right now? But! Since Pelosi & Reid ARE traitors, what would you expect the CIA to do, but lie to them.

Until...It's time for the Royal Flush. One little rug pulled out from The Big O... His non-eligibility. Of course, if 9/11 had been 2008, as they'd originally planned, the overwhelming emotional surge would have made O the World Dictator1

So... Maybe the Bushs DID make the Trade Towers happen? SO MANY things they've done first & watched them fail, depriving Commies from using same as The Big Power Grab.

I should know: My dad was the former Stasi East German General & Communist, Markus Wolf.

 

i'm not sure if it's because i am hungover, but that is so poorly written i don't even know what his conspiracy theory is.

Edited July 25, 2009 by mr_genius

[bmags]

well, I'm hungover too. Maybe in a couple hours we'll come back and make sense. The last line had me laughing my ass off, though. I SHOULD KNOW, MY FATHER WAS THE MARKUS WOLF

[Balta1701]

We're talking about the media in the other thread, but this is going to be a fun one to watch the next few months. Dan Rather has had for some time a lawsuit working its way through the legal system regarding his termination at CBS after the National Guard story in 2004. The lawsuit has entered the discovery phase, and CBS was just forced to hand over documents regarding the internal investigation that led to his official dismissal. The details of this are going to be fun to watch. For example...here is a list of a good number of the names of people CBS considered to run the investigation. No, we're not making this up.

• William Buckley

• Robert Novak

• Kate O'Beirne

• Nicholas Von Hoffman

• Tucker Carlson

• Pat Buchanan

• George Will

• Lou Dobbs

• Matt Drudge

• Robert Barkley

• Robert Kagan

• Fred Barnes

• William Kristol

• John Podhoretz

• David Brooks

• William Safire

• Bernard Goldberg

• Ann Coulter

• Andrew Sullivan

• Christopher Hitchens

• PJ O'Rourke

• Christopher Caldwell

• Elliot Abrams

• Charles Krauthammer

• William Bennett

• Rush Limbaugh

• Roger Ailes

In the end, they wound up choosing a guy who had worked for Bush 41 as Attorney General. That list sort of illustrates quite well how desperate CBS was at the time to dispel the notion of "Liberal bias!" that always gets thrown around. Seriously...Ann Coulter? As Eric Boehlert has written...this is not going to end well for CBS.