Let's give it up

[kapkomet]

This is just what I was expecting from our stellar fanbase. Not only do people insult Javier's intellect for being unable to have a good game against one of the most dangerous lineups in the game, Milkman insinuates Javier has no genitalia (par for the course on his part). I would bet anyone that Javier finishes at 4.20 ERA for the season and over 200.0 innings.

 

This is such bulls*** on everyone's part. He's our third best pitcher right now and that's not debatable. I'll take him over any other righty we've got for the rest of the season.

It's not just the "good lineups". Look at what most people are saying here (not some, those are the, um, not so smart fans, and I'll let you determine who those folks are). Most people here are saying he has some of the best stuff in baseball, and that's what keeps him around, but he blows up mentally at times and it costs him dearly. You want a Cy Young pitcher? I would love Mark Buehrle's head with Vazquez's stuff... that right there would be a Cy Young candidate every single year.

 

Just a thought.

[NorthSideSox72]

Ah yes. The take a verbal dump thread. That's right everyone, get it out of your system.

 

[lostfan]

It's not just the "good lineups". Look at what most people are saying here (not some, those are the, um, not so smart fans, and I'll let you determine who those folks are). Most people here are saying he has some of the best stuff in baseball, and that's what keeps him around, but he blows up mentally at times and it costs him dearly. You want a Cy Young pitcher? I would love Mark Buehrle's head with Vazquez's stuff... that right there would be a Cy Young candidate every single year.

 

Just a thought.

I think his stuff is pretty undeniable, the dude is straight nasty. He really pisses me off when he won't pitch inside, or pitch to contact. He was doing that this game. His pitches would actually work and be biting, but he looked like he was either trying too hard to strike everyone out, or he was just afraid to let the ball see the strike zone, and he'd keep missing off the outside corner. The Tigers hitters would just sit on it and wait for one that wasn't too far outside, and nail it. He does this every game. When he's challenging hitters instead of trying to fool them, it works beautifully. When he doesn't, it makes his other pitches ineffective.

 

Contrast this to, say, John Danks (or Mark Buehrle, since he is basically Danks with less stuff) who just won't care, and will throw inside to Barry Bonds if they wanted to. You need to be able to work both corners, especially when you have such quality off-speed stuff like Vazquez has.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think his stuff is pretty undeniable, the dude is straight nasty. He really pisses me off when he won't pitch inside, or pitch to contact. He was doing that this game. His pitches would actually work and be biting, but he looked like he was either trying too hard to strike everyone out, or he was just afraid to let the ball see the strike zone, and he'd keep missing off the outside corner. The Tigers hitters would just sit on it and wait for one that wasn't too far outside, and nail it. He does this every game. When he's challenging hitters instead of trying to fool them, it works beautifully. When he doesn't, it makes his other pitches ineffective.

 

Contrast this to, say, John Danks (or Mark Buehrle, since he is basically Danks with less stuff) who just won't care, and will throw inside to Barry Bonds if they wanted to. You need to be able to work both corners, especially when you have such quality off-speed stuff like Vazquez has.

Good post. It looks to me like that's exactly the case. He's avoiding the inside corner, and that won't work with him. Oddly, even though his stuff is very different, when he slimps, he has the same bad habit MB does - staying outside too much.

 

[lostfan]

Good post. It looks to me like that's exactly the case. He's avoiding the inside corner, and that won't work with him. Oddly, even though his stuff is very different, when he slimps, he has the same bad habit MB does - staying outside too much.

I was at the game against the A's when he was striking everybody out. He was going after guys, and his breaking stuff was working (from what I could tell out in section 102 in RF). Hawk and DJ were talking about how he wasn't in command today and was having trouble getting breaking balls over but I disagree with that. There was nothing wrong with his command, the ball was going where he was putting it, and his pitches were biting. The problem was where he was trying to put the ball in the first place. When you only use half the plate, you'll miss a lot of pitches, curves/sliders will miss the outside corner, and the fastballs will look meaty.

 

It doesn't look like there's anything physically wrong with what he's doing, or even mentally. He just has a terrible approach he doesn't seem to want to fix.

Edited July 28, 2008 by lostfan

[iamshack]

It's not just the "good lineups". Look at what most people are saying here (not some, those are the, um, not so smart fans, and I'll let you determine who those folks are). Most people here are saying he has some of the best stuff in baseball, and that's what keeps him around, but he blows up mentally at times and it costs him dearly. You want a Cy Young pitcher? I would love Mark Buehrle's head with Vazquez's stuff... that right there would be a Cy Young candidate every single year.

 

Just a thought.

 

Buehrle is the guy that can't pitch over the errors....I don't know that any of our pitchers are especially strong mentally....maybe Danksie...

[Milkman delivers]

This is just what I was expecting from our stellar fanbase. Not only do people insult Javier's intellect for being unable to have a good game against one of the most dangerous lineups in the game, Milkman insinuates Javier has no genitalia (par for the course on his part). I would bet anyone that Javier finishes at 4.20 ERA for the season and over 200.0 innings.

 

This is such bulls*** on everyone's part. He's our third best pitcher right now and that's not debatable. I'll take him over any other righty we've got for the rest of the season.

 

You've only been around since August of 2007. I have hardly even posted in Pale Hose Talk since that time. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about when you say "par for the course" on my part. But, you did a very good job of defending Vazquez by attacking my character.

 

Perhaps you should focus on the fact that Vazquez has never produced well on a competitive team, and thrives on bad ones.

[Heads22]

You know, it's amazing we're doing as well as we are with Javy's total lack of performance this year. You tell me before this season that Javy is pitching like this, and I think we're probably in third place.

[Milkman delivers]

Ah yes. The take a verbal dump thread. That's right everyone, get it out of your system.

 

That Vazquez is an underachiever has been my belief for years. Don't play this off like it's a bunch of idiots overreacting to one bad start. He's consistently bad when his team needs him to be good, but he'll be an ace if you're in last place.

[Milkman delivers]

Buehrle is the guy that can't pitch over the errors....I don't know that any of our pitchers are especially strong mentally....maybe Danksie...

 

I've noticed that Floyd likes to give up a fair amount of unearned runs, too.

[iamshack]

I've noticed that Floyd likes to give up a fair amount of unearned runs, too.

 

Yep, the one thing I don't like about Floyd is his mental makeup. He's a deer in the headlights.

Contreras is a stubborn bastard.

Buehrle seems to get shaken when errors occur.

Vazquez doesn't trust his stuff.

Which leaves Danksie. He's mah boy.

[Wanne]

You know, it's amazing we're doing as well as we are with Javy's total lack of performance this year. You tell me before this season that Javy is pitching like this, and I think we're probably in third place.

 

As well as Konerko hitting in the very low 200s....3rd place would seem like a certainty. Javy is pretty frustrating at times...but the pitch I think that frustrates me the most with him is his changeup....thrown at THE WORST possible moments sometime. Seems like everybody and their mom knows it's coming.

[MHizzle85]

This is just what I was expecting from our stellar fanbase. Not only do people insult Javier's intellect for being unable to have a good game against one of the most dangerous lineups in the game, Milkman insinuates Javier has no genitalia (par for the course on his part). I would bet anyone that Javier finishes at 4.20 ERA for the season and over 200.0 innings.

 

This is such bulls*** on everyone's part. He's our third best pitcher right now and that's not debatable. I'll take him over any other righty we've got for the rest of the season.

3rd? More like 4th.

 

7-8 with a 4.57 ERA...i'd rather take Danks' 8-4 with a 3.18 ERA or Floyd's 10-6 with a 3.57 ERA or Buehrle's 8-8 with a 3.56 ERA.

 

I wanna see Javy succeed, especially since he's a member of this ballclub. But him pissing down his leg during a big game or against a good team is evident. So if he were to leave in a trade for some pieces that could help us out, i'm all for it.

 

So on your point on it being not debatable...I think not.

[Milkman delivers]

3rd? More like 4th.

 

7-8 with a 4.57 ERA...i'd rather take Danks' 8-4 with a 3.18 ERA or Floyd's 10-6 with a 3.57 ERA or Buehrle's 8-8 with a 3.56 ERA.

 

I wanna see Javy succeed, especially since he's a member of this ballclub. But him pissing down his leg during a big game or against a good team is evident. So if he were to leave in a trade for some pieces that could help us out, i'm all for it.

 

So on your point on it being not debatable...I think not.

 

His ERA is now 4.73, and his WHIP is 1.36. Contreras has a 4.60 ERA and a 1.36 WHIP. Besides the injury, it's hard to make the argument that Vazquez is clearly better than Contreras, let alone the third best starter.

 

EDIT: ESPN changed the WHIP from 1.37 to 1.36 and the ERA from 4.75 to 4.73 in the time it took me to do the following post.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Milkman delivers

[Milkman delivers]

For the hell of it, here are the stats on the year for both Contreras and Vazquez:

 

SPLITS G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L P/GS WHIP BAA ERA

 

Contreras

Season 19 19 1 0 119.1 127 64 61 12 35 68 7 6 98.5 1.36 .270 4.60

 

Vazquez

Season 21 21 1 0 135.0 146 73 71 19 38 130 7 8 100.1 1.36 .273 4.73

 

They are very similar, and I'd give the edge to Contreras. Vazquez also makes $1.5 million more than Contreras (and second to Buehrle, whose ERA is more than a full run less than that of Vazquez).

 

[scenario]

Why the Javy bashing?

 

He was great in April...

 

He was great in May...

 

He had a crap June...

 

He's had two excellent starts in his 4 outings in July. (7/3; 7/21)

 

So, he has a bad game today against one of the best offensive teams in the AL and the jackals come out to tear up his carcass?

 

Give it a rest.

 

[Milkman delivers]

1998 - Montreal Expos - Team record of 65-97

ERA 6.06 League ERA 4.19 ERA+ 69

 

1999 - Montreal Expos - Team record of 68-94

ERA 5.00 League ERA 4.48 ERA+ 89

 

2000 - Montreal Expos - Team record of 67-95

ERA 4.05 League ERA 4.82 ERA+ 119

 

2001 - Montreal Expos - Team record of 68-84

ERA 3.42 League ERA 4.45 ERA+ 130

 

2002 - Montreal Expos - Team record of 83-79

ERA 3.91 League ERA 4.24 ERA+ 108

 

2003 - Montreal Expos - Team record of 83-79

ERA 3.24 League ERA 4.50 ERA+ 139

 

2004 - New York Yankees - Team record of 101-61

ERA 4.91 League ERA 4.50 ERA+ 92

 

2005 - Arizona Diamondbacks - Team record of 77-85

ERA 4.42 League ERA 4.44 ERA+ 100

 

2006 - Chicago White Sox - Team record of 90-72

ERA 4.84 League ERA 4.75 ERA+ 98

 

2007 - Chicago White Sox - Team record of 72-90

ERA 3.74 League ERA 4.74 ERA+ 127

 

And we know what's happening this year.

[Milkman delivers]

Why the Javy bashing?

 

He was great in April...

 

He was great in May...

 

He had a crap June...

 

He's had two excellent starts in his 4 outings in July. (7/3; 7/21)

 

So, he has a bad game today against one of the best offensive teams in the AL and the jackals come out to tear up his carcass?

 

Give it a rest.

 

Yeah, nobody has been tearing up his carcass for years. This is entirely due to his one bad start today.

[----------]

Why the Javy bashing?

 

He was great in April...

 

He was great in May...

 

He had a crap June...

 

He's had two excellent starts in his 4 outings in July. (7/3; 7/21)

 

So, he has a bad game today against one of the best offensive teams in the AL and the jackals come out to tear up his carcass?

 

Give it a rest.

Because people here don't care about what a person is capable of or what they have done in the past. See jim thome's reputation a month ago.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Maxwell

[Milkman delivers]

Because people here don't care about what a person is capable off or what they have done in the past. See jim thome's reputation a month ago.

 

What the f*** has he done in the past?

 

And the problem is we know exactly what he is capable of, but that he's too much of a head case to do it consistently and with pressure on him.

[eickevinmorris]

oh dear god will you just look at the freaking stats? he's had like... zero quality starts in the last month and a half. that's pretty f***tastic.

Except, you know, 2 of the 3 starts he's had prior to today this month.

[kapkomet]

Well, for me, I'm not trying to tear him up based on today - I just want to see the guy be into every start mentally, because if he is, he's one of the best "stuff" pitchers in baseball, today or any other day notwithstanding. That's all I want from Javy. But, 'tis a game played by humans. That's why it's so interesting to watch, 'cause it's not predictable, eh?

 

[----------]

What the f*** has he done in the past?

 

And the problem is we know exactly what he is capable of, but that he's too much of a head case to do it consistently and with pressure on him.

He was lights out for the start of the year. That was in the past, no? All this head case crap is meaningless to me. To me, more than likely its just a coincidence.

 

I think he is pitching worse because of his control. No other reason.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Maxwell

[greg775]

I don't know that any of our pitchers are especially strong mentally....maybe Danksie...

 

I'm not supporting Javy, but I have a question: What pitchers in baseball today are strong mentally?? I think we judge our own harsher than others. There are no complete game pitchers anymore. Has anybody watched enough games of all pitchers to tell me who is tough mentally?? I just hope our pitchers get their heads out of their asses or we aren't going to make the playoffs.

Edited July 28, 2008 by greg775

[YASNY]

When it comes down to it, overall Javy has been a disappointment since coming to the Sox. At times he's been good, damn good. But whatever reason, he has failed to live up to expectations. And's that is coming from a guy who thinks the negativity on Soxtalk is over the top.