And somewhere up in Canada...JP Riccardi is fashioning a Mark Shapiro voodoo doll...

He should be fashioning a JP Riccardi voodoo doll instead.

Its one thing to trade for a Happ, who has proven he can pitch in the majors, or even Drabek, who is at AAA and so close. Knapp is 18 years old, and I dont care how highly touted he is, he is still a LONG way from the majors, and a lot of weird stuff can happen, like injuries, or it can just turn out he was overrated the whole time.

Happ hasn't proven s***, is Kyle Kendrick a proven Major League pitcher? No, but he had one good year (ERA wise). Happ's stuff and peripherals don't match his results, he's due for a BIG decline. I agree on Knapp though, he has some great K rates but his command is bad, as are his mechanics and he's been injury prone, those guys fail, often.

The Phillies got robbed blind on this one. Ultimately, I’d say it adds about to 2-4 wins this year in a division they were almost assured to win without making a move.

Cliff Lee is far from proven as he can get back out of sorts in a hurry, but the Phils got a pretty good deal here considering the prospects they gave up werent world beaters.

The Phillies got robbed blind on this one. Ultimately, I’d say it adds about to 2-4 wins this year in a division they were almost assured to win without making a move.

The move was to increase their chances in the post season.

The Phillies got robbed blind on this one. Ultimately, I’d say it adds about to 2-4 wins this year in a division they were almost assured to win without making a move.

 

I read they are concerned about facing the Giants in the postseason....Lee would help them match-up against a Lincecum/Cain combo...

The move was to increase their chances in the post season.

Leaves them stacked for next year too. Remember, if you're a team like the Phillies...your window is now, when Howard, Utley, Rollins, perhaps Ibanez, perhaps Werth, Victorino, Hamels, Lidge are all right around their prime ages. 2 years from now, guys are getting hurt because they're older, guys are in walk years, guys are more expensive, etc. They've got a shot at the WS for 3 years in a row. You want to face Hamels, Blanton, and Lee 3 times in the same 7 game series?

The Phillies got robbed blind on this one. Ultimately, I’d say it adds about to 2-4 wins this year in a division they were almost assured to win without making a move.

 

Probably a good thing then that this move had absolutely nothing to do with winning the division.

Happ hasn't proven s***, is Kyle Kendrick a proven Major League pitcher? No, but he had one good year (ERA wise). Happ's stuff and peripherals don't match his results, he's due for a BIG decline. I agree on Knapp though, he has some great K rates but his command is bad, as are his mechanics and he's been injury prone, those guys fail, often.

Any time you do a deal like this for 3 or 4 guys, you're going for numbers. Last year we didn't think Clayton Richard looked like more than a reliever, now he's stepping up big time. Think about how many deals wind up being good deals because 1 or 2 guys develop? Or because a surprise guy develops? The Pierzynski trade...the big piece was Boof Bonser. The prize wound up being that converted guy named Joe Nathan. The original Colon trade was for Brandon Phillips. He was released by the Tribe, but they also got Sizemore and Lee. A couple of these guys are likely to bust. But it is an infusion of talent throughout the system that can either develop, be used for trades, or give you the ability to draft guys at other positions.

Probably a good thing then that this move had absolutely nothing to do with winning the division.

I think the playoffs are too big of a crapshoot to just assume that getting a top pitcher is going to clinch you a trip to the World Series. The way I see it is that the Phillies gave up a decent haul for a piece that will help them slightly, but offer no significant upgrade for the rest of the year. On paper the Phillies would look good going into a series against the Giants, however, if paper stood for anything then the Yankees would win it ever year. Looking at this deal In the long-term it does make sense, and stands to benefit both sides.

What if the Phillies saved those other prospects and use those to trade for Halladay now? They still have enough to make the trade IMO.

I think the playoffs are too big of a crapshoot to just assume that getting a top pitcher is going to clinch you a trip to the World Series. The way I see it is that the Phillies gave up a decent haul for a piece that will help them slightly, but offer no significant upgrade for the rest of the year. On paper the Phillies would look good going into a series against the Giants, however, if paper stood for anything then the Yankees would win it ever year. Looking at this deal In the long-term it does make sense, and stands to benefit both sides.

 

It is a crapshoot...but the prevailing theory seems to be that dominant pitching beats dominant hitting, and that is the best way to succeed in such a crapshoot.

Leaves them stacked for next year too. Remember, if you're a team like the Phillies...your window is now, when Howard, Utley, Rollins, perhaps Ibanez, perhaps Werth, Victorino, Hamels, Lidge are all right around their prime ages. 2 years from now, guys are getting hurt because they're older, guys are in walk years, guys are more expensive, etc. They've got a shot at the WS for 3 years in a row. You want to face Hamels, Blanton, and Lee 3 times in the same 7 game series?

The Phils now have a shot at winning 2 or 3 straight world series. It was a brilliant move, plus while the Tribe got a good package, in no way do I think the Phils over-paid. It was a fair trade, imo. Made sense for both parties.

It is a crapshoot...but the prevailing theory seems to be that dominant pitching beats dominant hitting, and that is the best way to succeed in such a crapshoot.

 

^^^^^^^

The 2005 White Sox say hi!

watching MLB Network, they're stressing that this deal likely won't be finalized until tomorrow because Knapp currently has a sore shoulder (as noted in the content of the first post), so the Indians might want a little extra time

Ben Francisco seemed to hurt us a lot as well. Good getting those two out of the division.

The Phillies got a very good pitcher who's signed for another year without giving up their top prospects. That's a hell of a deal for them.

The Phillies got robbed blind on this one. Ultimately, I’d say it adds about to 2-4 wins this year in a division they were almost assured to win without making a move.

 

And you could say the same thing about Halladay. The Phillies aren't shooting for division titles. They're going for championships. And a rotation headed by Lee/Hamels (or Hamels/Lee), Blanton, Moyer and possibly Pedro gives them a much better chance in October.

 

 

I think the playoffs are too big of a crapshoot to just assume that getting a top pitcher is going to clinch you a trip to the World Series. The way I see it is that the Phillies gave up a decent haul for a piece that will help them slightly, but offer no significant upgrade for the rest of the year. On paper the Phillies would look good going into a series against the Giants, however, if paper stood for anything then the Yankees would win it ever year. Looking at this deal In the long-term it does make sense, and stands to benefit both sides.

 

Who's assuming anything? They're attempting to give themselves the best chance to win a championship. By your logic no team with a 5+ game lead in their division should attempt to make themselves better because anybody can win in the playoffs. Remember when the Sox had a 15 game lead in 2005? Remember all the Griffey rumors? Remember all the AJ Burnett rumors? That's what a good GM does. Of course anybody can win. That's what's great. You still don't sit on your hands if you have a chance to get better.

The Phillies got a very good pitcher who's signed for another year without giving up their top prospects. That's a hell of a deal for them.

 

I can't 'fathom' how anybody sees this as a bad move for the Phillies. I'm actually jealous.

And they did it without giving up Drabek.

I don’t want to seem like I’m backtracking, B) but I’ll concede that you all made some very legitimate points. At the end of the day the Phillies put themselves in a position to win RIGHT NOW, and I can’t see a problem with that. Plus, not giving up Drabek is big.

And they did it without giving up Drabek.

 

Or those two outfielders Taylor and Brown... those three together could probably net you Halladay if you really wanted him

Or those two outfielders Taylor and Brown... those three together could probably net you Halladay if you really wanted him

 

Taylor and Brown would be the top 2 OF 'spects in probably 75% of the farm systems in baseball.

Acquiring Cliff Lee without giving up a top prospect...good day to be a Phils phan

The biggest concern with Lee is how he handles big situations. His success these past 2 years has come when the Indians sucked. I'm interested to see how he handles a lot more pressure now.