AGon discussion, et. al.

[Princess Dye]

Really? You think we need to invest more in starting pitching?

 

I would imagine any trade bringing in Halladay has a current young starter outgoing.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Princess Dye

[The Ginger Kid]

Really? You think we need to invest more in starting pitching?

my feeling is you can never have enough, and adding Halladay would push this team over the top and relieve pressure off both the offense and bullpen. Peavy's health is a concern, too.

[Princess Dye]

While I am in the camp that wants to work on offense way more than pitching......we do need to have the expectation that we might have four starters that end up with 4.00 ERAs. It seems like most people here are expecting those four starters to have 3.50 ERAs.

 

Obviously not an awful thing but point being we cant assume we're championship level with the staff.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Princess Dye

[Balta1701]

I would imagine any trade bringing in Halladay has a current young starter outgoing.

So people would be willing to give up 1 of Floyd or Danks for a 1 year rental of Halladay and at the same time leave us with zero funds left for the DH/LF spots?

 

Adding Halladay to that rotation is simply overkill. You can't offset a weak offense by producing a moderate upgrade out of your #3 starter spot.

[Princess Dye]

So people would be willing to give up 1 of Floyd or Danks for a 1 year rental of Halladay and at the same time leave us with zero funds left for the DH/LF spots?

 

Adding Halladay to that rotation is simply overkill. You can't offset a weak offense by producing a moderate upgrade out of your #3 starter spot.

Cant just say Doc means we have no way of getting a LF.

 

Cant rule out Kenny's ability to move money around. Via trade we could get LF done ....just like no one saw the McCarthy trade coming, there are always ways.

 

And of course there's the camp wanting Kotsay and Flowers sharing DH (with Kotsay more likely in the field on his days in)

 

ALSO -I personally wouldnt do this, but since Trader Ken always shocks us...it's not entirely unthinkable to see him move AJP for a positional need.....then you have your young catcher baptized by fire...and you fill a need while avoiding the upcoming AJ/TF standoff.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Princess Dye

[witesoxfan]

Cant just say Doc means we have no way of getting a LF.

 

Cant rule out Kenny's ability to move money around. Via trade we could get LF done ....just like no one saw the McCarthy trade coming, there are always ways.

 

And of course there's the camp wanting Kotsay and Flowers sharing DH (with Kotsay more likely in the field on his days in)

 

Halladay is making like $17 mill this season. There is no fiscally responsible or reasonable way for the Sox to add him this season.

[GreatScott82]

So people would be willing to give up 1 of Floyd or Danks for a 1 year rental of Halladay and at the same time leave us with zero funds left for the DH/LF spots?

 

Adding Halladay to that rotation is simply overkill. You can't offset a weak offense by producing a moderate upgrade out of your #3 starter spot.

Couldn't agree more. our rotation is set. this team still has too many weaknesses. Adding another Ace would be overkill. We still need a leadoff hitter, DH, and depth in the pen. Fortanately for KW he has enough depth in the farm to go out and make a few deals. I also agree with Mark Gonzalez- I believe KW will make one big splash this winter. Rather it be Adrian Gonzalez or Carl Crawford- that is yet to be seen...

Edited November 18, 2009 by GreatScott82

[southsider2k5]

So people would be willing to give up 1 of Floyd or Danks for a 1 year rental of Halladay and at the same time leave us with zero funds left for the DH/LF spots?

 

Adding Halladay to that rotation is simply overkill. You can't offset a weak offense by producing a moderate upgrade out of your #3 starter spot.

 

Exactly. For the improvement we would get from Halladay versus Danks or Floyd, we could spend a lot of those assets (both prospects and money) to help places that will help us win a lot more games than that one would.

[witesoxfan]

Exactly. For the improvement we would get from Halladay versus Danks or Floyd, we could spend a lot of those assets (both prospects and money) to help places that will help us win a lot more games than that one would.

 

It's basic economics. One more or an improved starter in the rotation isn't going to do a hell of a lot more than it already can, but a fantastic hitter in the middle of a mediocre lineup can make it a good offense, which is going to do quite a bit for this team in the long run.

[Princess Dye]

I basically agree with everyone here. To offer a few caveats though:

 

The Sox may want to go for it all this year. And if they dont like what they see available for offensive players......

 

They may want to get the no-doubt staff ace, get Pods/Thome cheap and call it a night. That might necessitate dumping Jenks but we dont know JR's pocketbook for sure. Apparently KW never does either.

 

I only say all this thinking of any possible ways in which this rumor could be real.

 

The philosophy would be -- lets make the pitching championship level and just pray for the offense. As we stand, we're very solid pitching and still prayer-needing offense.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Princess Dye

[Balta1701]

They may want to get the no-doubt staff ace, get Pods/Thome and call it a night.

You may think that they've got 4 guys who could have an ERA around 4...but I'll lay you 10 to 1 if you asked KW somehow, he'd tell you he got his no-doubt staff ace last July. The guy did the pitching triple crown only 2 years ago (ERA, wins, and strikeouts).

 

And the Detroit Tigers might agree, FWIW.

[southsider2k5]

It's basic economics. One more or an improved starter in the rotation isn't going to do a hell of a lot more than it already can, but a fantastic hitter in the middle of a mediocre lineup can make it a good offense, which is going to do quite a bit for this team in the long run.

 

Bingo. To make it simple, Adding Gonzalez will win us a lot more games than Halladay would.

[Princess Dye]

You may think that they've got 4 guys who could have an ERA around 4...but I'll lay you 10 to 1 if you asked KW somehow, he'd tell you he got his no-doubt staff ace last July. The guy did the pitching triple crown only 2 years ago (ERA, wins, and strikeouts).

 

And the Detroit Tigers might agree, FWIW.

 

Hey I'm all for it. But I dont see the couple of starts last year as an indicator that he's completely over the relative step back he took after the Cy Young

 

I guess we shall see.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Princess Dye

[The Ginger Kid]

The philosophy would be -- lets make the pitching championship level and just pray for the offense. As we stand, we're very solid pitching and still prayer-needing offense.

 

that's a philosophy i currently agree with. I don't believe you can have overkill in a starting rotation and you don't need someone in the middle of the order to hit .350/40/100 to be competitive when you can run Peavy/Halladay out there for close to 40% of your starts.

[Princess Dye]

I would agree with everyone that says its a mismanagement of funds to dump cheap players for Halladay. But like I said, KW's creativity cant be underestmated. There are a few money earners on our current roster that could conceivably be moved to free up cash.

[witesoxfan]

that's a philosophy i currently agree with. I don't believe you can have overkill in a starting rotation and you don't need someone in the middle of the order to hit .350/40/100 to be competitive when you can run Peavy/Halladay out there for close to 40% of your starts.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/LAD/2003.shtml

 

If you can't score runs, you can't win games

[Princess Dye]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/LAD/2003.shtml

 

If you can't score runs, you can't win games

 

With our park and our defense, Floyd is a little less valuable here than he might be somewhere else.

 

With our park, we can stretch our dollars more when we go out and get cheap free agent power guys that do actually matter.

 

 

 

I guess I just see it as....with our current situation we badly need a guy who will get people out with the bat on their shoulder. Obviously no one is going to argue with me on that being a good thing, but I guess you're all arguing with me on how necessary that is for our team specifically to have a championship hope.

 

If you put the Doc/Peavy staff out there, all you would need to go right is the team HR total going back up...which i think is doable with 5-8M somehow freed up for a cheap power guy. I only say this because I think there's no way we get a high OBP team together for next year....... but in 05 we had a great staff and a steady group of power guys...and it was just enough.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Princess Dye

[witesoxfan]

that's a philosophy i currently agree with. I don't believe you can have overkill in a starting rotation and you don't need someone in the middle of the order to hit .350/40/100 to be competitive when you can run Peavy/Halladay out there for close to 40% of your starts.

 

You can also consider a restaurant. Say said restaurant has 4 very good cooks and 1 cook who is learning/old, but can hold their own. Say your serving staff is full of under-qualified employees and is lacking employees. Is the kitchen going to get that much better if you the best cook in town? Probably not. Is the serving staff going to get that much better if you add the best server in town? You bet your ass.

 

It's simply following the Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns.

[Princess Dye]

You can also consider a restaurant. Say said restaurant has 4 very good cooks and 1 cook who is learning/old, but can hold their own. Say your serving staff is full of under-qualified employees and is lacking employees. Is the kitchen going to get that much better if you the best cook in town? Probably not. Is the serving staff going to get that much better if you add the best server in town? You bet your ass.

 

It's simply following the Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns.

 

In a seven game series that restaurant would be outstanding though. Wait wah

 

I think in our heart of hearts we know that Mark/Floyd/Danks isnt striking fear into another team come playoff time. Solid but I think we'd still be the underdog against whatever other divisional champ we'd face.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Princess Dye

[witesoxfan]

With our park and our defense, Floyd is a little less valuable here than he might be somewhere else.

 

With our park, we can stretch our dollars more when we go out and get cheap free agent power guys that do actually matter.

 

 

 

I guess I just see it as....with our current situation we badly need a guy who will get people out with the bat on their shoulder. Obviously no one is going to argue with me on that being a good thing, but I guess you're all arguing with me on how necessary that is for our team specifically to have a championship hope.

 

If you put the Doc/Peavy staff out there, all you would need to go right is the team HR total going back up...which i think is doable with 5-8M somehow freed up for a cheap power guy. I only say this because I think there's no way we get a high OBP team together for next year....... but in 05 we had a great staff and a steady group of power guys...and it was just enough.

 

Again, Halladay is going to make like $17 mill next year, and I guarantee you that the Jays won't take on a considerable amount of that if they trade him. There will also be teams who inquire about him that will want to sign him to an extension, which the Jays are open to, which will also increase his value.

 

If the Sox were to trade for and then sign Halladay, not only can you kiss Hudson, Floyd, Flowers, and atleast one other good prospect away, but you have now eaten up the entire offseason's resources in trading for a pitcher that really isn't going to give you that much of an upgrade, and you will have to deal with the current offensive structure and/or AAA free agents.

 

Trading for Halladay would be a monumental mistake and one that Williams will not make. If he can't sign Figgins for $10 mill a year, why on earth would he trade for Halladay who is making $17 mill?

[qwerty]

In a seven game series that restaurant would be outstanding though. Wait wah

 

I think in our heart of hearts we know that Mark/Floyd/Danks isnt striking fear into another team come playoff time. Solid but I think we'd still be the underdog against whatever other divisional champ we'd face.

 

You forgot peavy, which should make a rather large difference.

[southsider2k5]

You can also consider a restaurant. Say said restaurant has 4 very good cooks and 1 cook who is learning/old, but can hold their own. Say your serving staff is full of under-qualified employees and is lacking employees. Is the kitchen going to get that much better if you the best cook in town? Probably not. Is the serving staff going to get that much better if you add the best server in town? You bet your ass.

 

It's simply following the Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns.

Someone after my economic heart...

[witesoxfan]

In a seven game series that restaurant would be outstanding though. Wait wah

 

I think in our heart of hearts we know that Mark/Floyd/Danks isnt striking fear into another team come playoff time. Solid but I think we'd still be the underdog against whatever other divisional champ we'd face.

 

In game 163, Joe Mauer, who had locked up the AL batting title, bunted against John Danks because he couldn't hit him.

 

Mark Buehrle has thrown two no-hitters, has pitched in the postseason, and has pitched well in the postseason.

 

Floyd is the #4 starting pitcher.

 

It doesn't matter if they "strike fear" - if you put lion on the mound, it's going to strike fear in the opponent. What I want on the mound in the playoffs is a guy that is going to pitch well and give the team a chance to win.

[witesoxfan]

Someone after my economic heart...

 

it's what I do

[Princess Dye]

In game 163, Joe Mauer, who had locked up the AL batting title, bunted against John Danks because he couldn't hit him.

 

Mark Buehrle has thrown two no-hitters, has pitched in the postseason, and has pitched well in the postseason.

 

Floyd is the #4 starting pitcher.

 

It doesn't matter if they "strike fear" - if you put lion on the mound, it's going to strike fear in the opponent. What I want on the mound in the playoffs is a guy that is going to pitch well and give the team a chance to win.

 

These are some pretty small sample sizes. I dont want to rag on our guys, but it sounds like you're calling John Danks a dominant pitcher.

 

I mean, you cant argue that with Halladay in for Floyd...it's a gigantic difference in what an opposing playoff opponent has to face.

 

Yes it costs more $$. That is the reason why.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Princess Dye