NBA playoffs thread

[Palehosefan]

Michael Jordan's the reason that Chicago, Detroit, the Lakers, Cleveland, New York, Orlando, Houston, Utah, Phoenix, Seattle, Portland etc. don't have (more) championships.

 

Fixed it. :-)

[WilliamTell]

Michael Jordan's the reason that Detroit, the Lakers, Cleveland, New York, Orlando, Houston, Utah, Phoenix, Seattle, Portland etc. don't have (more) championships.

 

Don't forget about Indiana! Their 97-98 team was really good, taking the Bulls to 7 games in the Eastern Conferance Finals.

[Balta1701]

lebron, wade, bosh don't win championship every season. there is only one of each of them in the league. teams has won in the past without those players, but with a solid core of players. so why only target lebron, wade and bosh, and if they are gone, then don't sign the so call "second tier players". there is a risk that a team signs lebron, wade or bosh will not win too. it all depends on fit and chemistry. i guarantee you wade will not put the bulls over the top.

 

you can compare wade and bosh to payton and malone because supposedly they are the top level, but having payton and malone didn't help their team win either.

If I added Duncan, Jordan, Shaq, and Hakeem to that list, from their primes...and then Isiah, Bird, Magic, and Dr. J, I think the only counter-example you can give me from the last 30 years...where a team won a title without a guy who legitimately should have been paid a max deal and more, without a guy you could consider in the top 10 in the league, is the 2004 Pistons.

[WilliamTell]

If I added Duncan, Jordan, Shaq, and Hakeem to that list, from their primes...and then Isiah, Bird, Magic, and Dr. J, I think the only counter-example you can give me from the last 30 years...where a team won a title without a guy who legitimately should have been paid a max deal and more, without a guy you could consider in the top 10 in the league, is the 2004 Pistons.

 

The 2004 Pistons are who I was thinking of too. Natually they weren't favored in the finals either. LA had some serious issues. Seemed like Malone and Payton were the only ones who came to play. Probably because they wanted a ring.

[Balta1701]

The 2004 Pistons are who I was thinking of too. Natually they weren't favored in the finals either. LA had some serious issues. Seemed like Malone and Payton were the only ones who came to play. Probably because they wanted a ring.

And when you get right down to it...how many of those teams won those titles not only having 1 all-time great playing at their peak, but without having an additional all-star or two alongside them?

[thxfrthmmrs]

I don't know if you are talking about Stockton-Malone, or Payton-Malone joining the Lakers during their final days. If you are talking about Stockton-Malone, Michael Jordan was the only reason that Stockton-Malone didn't have mutiple championships.

 

 

i was referring to payton and malone and the fact that couldn't do it on their own and and joining the lakers in 04 to get the rings. and yes, jordan was the reason why they didn't win anything, but their success can be attributed to the help of sidekicks, john stockton and shawn kemp, who are great second option players, and good investment for the money

 

balta was arguing that teams should not overpay for second or third option players to put their teams over the luxury tax threshold. but superstars can't win on their own, that's why kobe needs gasol, pierce needed kg and ray, who all makes tons of money. there is nothing wrong with paying $14-$16 mil to joe johnson, boozer, and amare, and $20 mil to dirk, because they are worth it.

 

what do you think upsets the fans more, the owner being cheap with the money and not willing invest in big name free agents, resulting in .500 teams every season, or the team sign a big name free agent or two, but the team might not win championships immediately, yet makes them a threat to do so every year. the bulls had sold out every game in the past couple of years, it would really upset the fans if JR is unwilling to go after anyone after lebron, wade and bosh gets signed.

[WilliamTell]

And when you get right down to it...how many of those teams won those titles not only having 1 all-time great playing at their peak, but without having an additional all-star or two alongside them?

 

Yeah exactly.

 

Didn't realize only 7 franchises have won a championship in the last 26 years.

[Balta1701]

what do you think upsets the fans more, the owner being cheap with the money and not willing invest in big name free agents, resulting in .500 teams every season, or the team sign a big name free agent or two, but the team might not win championships immediately, yet makes them a threat to do so every year. the bulls had sold out every game in the past couple of years, it would really upset the fans if JR is unwilling to go after anyone after lebron, wade and bosh gets signed.

Here's my biggest worry with everyone other than Bosh, Lebron, and maybe maybe Wade (although he's already taken a beating) or Amare...

 

"The team might not win championships immediately"

 

If you sign Nowitzki, Boozer, the soon to be 29 year old Joe Johnson...then if your team doesn't win championships immediately...how long until they're on the road down hill? It's a couple years before Rose, Noah, Gibson are approaching/at "Peak Age" in the 25-27 range. Ditto Deng, who we're flat-out stuck with for now.

[knightni]

Fixed it. :-)

Very true. His baseball stint allowed Houston to win two. I wonder if he was burnt out though and needed the time off.

[thxfrthmmrs]

If I added Duncan, Jordan, Shaq, and Hakeem to that list, from their primes...and then Isiah, Bird, Magic, and Dr. J, I think the only counter-example you can give me from the last 30 years...where a team won a title without a guy who legitimately should have been paid a max deal and more, without a guy you could consider in the top 10 in the league, is the 2004 Pistons.

 

 

hat is not the point. I am just referring to your previous post that teams should not spend big money on second or even third options. i am not saying that teams don't need superstars to win, but superstars can't do it themselves, jordan needed pippen, duncan first won in 1999 when david robinson still makes tons of money, shaq had kobe then wade, bird had a great core around him, and you need to pay for for those players.

 

of course d rose and lebron together will win a couple of titles, but if lebron is not available, then should the bulls really stop pursuing other players like you said because they can't win on their own, like JJ, amare, boozer, dirk? no. you still take your chance with a guy like JJ because he is a great player, perennial all star, he doesn't need to be a superstar, derrick rose is the face of the franchise. a team of rose, noah, and dirk or joe johnson will help the bull make a deep run every year. there is nothing wrong with paying JJ $15 mil a year and dirk $18-20 mil a year.

[knightni]

Part of me doesn't want LeBron on the Bulls because he's a massive jerk. But, then the realization of his talent kicks in.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Here's my biggest worry with everyone other than Bosh, Lebron, and maybe maybe Wade (although he's already taken a beating) or Amare...

 

"The team might not win championships immediately"

 

If you sign Nowitzki, Boozer, the soon to be 29 year old Joe Johnson...then if your team doesn't win championships immediately...how long until they're on the road down hill? It's a couple years before Rose, Noah, Gibson are approaching/at "Peak Age" in the 25-27 range. Ditto Deng, who we're flat-out stuck with for now.

 

by immediately i meant not immediately next year, but perhaps the season after the next. it takes time to develop chemistry, unless your the boston celtics. and rose and noah still needs a year to mature. dirk is a player whose skill set ages well, same goes for a shooter like JJ. because he relies on finesse not athleticism, there is no reason that dirk, noah, rose and deng can not win in 2012.

 

but wade on the other hand turns 29 next season, relies much on athleticism and is and injury waiting to happen. so if i am the bulls, wade would not be my primary target, because he doesn't not fit in better than JJ or dirk does, and i wouldn't be discouraged at all if he stays put.

Edited May 2, 2010 by thxfrthmmrs

[knightni]

Nowitzki's got maybe 3 All-Star level years left in him after this year; and that's optimistic.

[WilliamTell]

Nowitzki's got maybe 3 All-Star level years left in him after this year; and that's optimistic.

 

As long as he has that sweet stroke he'll be productive.

[knightni]

As long as he has that sweet stroke he'll be productive.

Productive, possibly. All-Star salary level? No.

 

If he goes to free agency, some team is going to be on the hook for a 5 year deal worth so much that Hinrich and Deng will look like steals.

 

If he's even averaging 20 points a game when he enters the 4th year of his deal, I'd be surprised.

[whitesoxfan99]

Everytime I watch Carlos Boozer play against the Lakers I'm reminded of why I don't want him on the Bulls. He is a good player, but he sucks on D, and struggles to score on anything other than a jump shot because he isn't athletic and doesn't have the length to score against Gasol or Bynum in the post on a consistent basis.

[Brian]

Everytime I watch Carlos Boozer play against the Lakers I'm reminded of why I don't want him on the Bulls. He is a good player, but he sucks on D, and struggles to score on anything other than a jump shot because he isn't athletic and doesn't have the length to score against Gasol or Bynum in the post on a consistent basis.

 

I'm with you. Not a high priority for me as a Bulls fan.

 

Kobe doing the scowl just to show off now. It was amusing when he instinctly did it, but now it is annoying.

[Balta1701]

Everytime I watch Carlos Boozer play against the Lakers I'm reminded of why I don't want him on the Bulls. He is a good player, but he sucks on D, and struggles to score on anything other than a jump shot because he isn't athletic and doesn't have the length to score against Gasol or Bynum in the post on a consistent basis.

Boozer would be a great fit...if we'd already added Wade.

[WilliamTell]

Everytime I watch Carlos Boozer play against the Lakers I'm reminded of why I don't want him on the Bulls. He is a good player, but he sucks on D, and struggles to score on anything other than a jump shot because he isn't athletic and doesn't have the length to score against Gasol or Bynum in the post on a consistent basis.

 

LA is by far Boozer's worst matchup. It has been ever since he's been on the Jazz. Gasol is just too long and athletic for him.

[kjshoe04]

Agreed. No Boozer please. Would much rather have Lee.

[Balta1701]

Agreed. No Boozer please. Would much rather have Lee.

I think David Lee will be the poster-child this offseason for "Teams pay way too much for slightly above average talent once the big names are off the market".

[WilliamTell]

Productive, possibly. All-Star salary level? No.

 

If he goes to free agency, some team is going to be on the hook for a 5 year deal worth so much that Hinrich and Deng will look like steals.

 

If he's even averaging 20 points a game when he enters the 4th year of his deal, I'd be surprised.

 

This year he just shot his highest 3P%, FT%, and second highest FG%. I was surprised to see that.

[kjshoe04]

I think David Lee will be the poster-child this offseason for "Teams pay way too much for slightly above average talent once the big names are off the market".

I think that will go to Boozer, or even Amare. I think Lee is a better player than Boozer, and Amare just screams bust to me. Just my opinions though.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Productive, possibly. All-Star salary level? No.

 

If he goes to free agency, some team is going to be on the hook for a 5 year deal worth so much that Hinrich and Deng will look like steals.

 

If he's even averaging 20 points a game when he enters the 4th year of his deal, I'd be surprised.

 

what would change if he is 34 years old? he is still 7 footer who plays the perimeter, a matchup nightmare for most teams, he can still shoot 90% from the foul line and 40% from threes, his game does not require him to outquick anybody, but use a variety of moves and pump fakes to get his shot off. look at his pal steve nash at age 36 still flying high with phoenix, larry bird still averages 20 and 10 at age 36, those are the types of player that ages well.

 

if the bulls indeed gets dirk, all we need from him is 20 and 8 a night, hit some threes and get to the foul line.

 

think about it, if the bulls had dirk in this playoffs, the cavs can not afford double rose and leave dirk open at the perimeter, or have no one to box out noah in the paint who eats the glass like a cookie monster, their only option is to run lebron at rose all game, which would definitely fatigue him and affect his efficiency on the offensive end.

 

if dirk opts out this summer, he is the first player i will call up this summer if i were paxson, forget the wade, bosh (maybe not bron), and joe johnson is the second player i am after. give me dirk, and a player like matt barnes or martell webster who has the length and size to bang with lebron and can also shoot from distance, i really like our chances of knocking the cavs off in the playoffs.

[knightni]

Lee has had as many if not more points and rebounds per game over the last two years than Boozer and he's a year and a half younger.