The crazy thing was that Williams actually made 3 acquisitions to help that bullpen out, and all 3 were varying levels of adequate (Riske), good (Thornton), and great (MacDougal), and it was still just terrible. Jenks blew up in July and September of that year, the league finally realized that Neal Cotts only had 1 pitch, Cliff Politte had a worse season than Randy Williams is having now, Brandon McCarthy was not a middle reliever, Boone Logan was certainly not ready to be a relief pitcher for the Sox...it was ugly all-around.

 

In 2005, 4 White Sox starters finished with an ERA below 4.00 (and Freddy was the highest at 3.87)...in 2006, no White Sox starter had an ERA below 4.25, and Contreras was the best at 4.27 (and in his final 22 starts, he posted a 5.32 ERA). The magic had definitely worn off.

Don't let Kalapse see that.

Randy Williams 2010 - 60 base runners, 57 via H&BB in 25 IP (2.28 WHIP), 0.7 HR/9

Cliff Politte 2006 - 63 baserunners, 62 via H&BB in 30 IP (2.07 WHIP), 2.7 HR/9

 

Atleast when Williams comes on, the base runners he allows aren't guaranteed to come home.

Randy Williams 2010 - 60 base runners, 57 via H&BB in 25 IP (2.28 WHIP), 0.7 HR/9

Cliff Politte 2006 - 63 baserunners, 62 via H&BB in 30 IP (2.07 WHIP), 2.7 HR/9

 

Atleast when Williams comes on, the base runners he allows aren't guaranteed to come home.

 

How do they compare with regards to inherited runners? Is there a way to compare which one allowed more of them to score?

The crazy thing was that Williams actually made 3 acquisitions to help that bullpen out, and all 3 were varying levels of adequate (Riske), good (Thornton), and great (MacDougal), and it was still just terrible. Jenks blew up in July and September of that year, the league finally realized that Neal Cotts only had 1 pitch, Cliff Politte had a worse season than Randy Williams is having now, Brandon McCarthy was not a middle reliever, Boone Logan was certainly not ready to be a relief pitcher for the Sox...it was ugly all-around.

 

In 2005, 4 White Sox starters finished with an ERA below 4.00 (and Freddy was the highest at 3.87)...in 2006, no White Sox starter had an ERA below 4.25, and Contreras was the best at 4.27 (and in his final 22 starts, he posted a 5.32 ERA). The magic had definitely worn off.

 

I think in the case of some of the bullpen guys, the pixie dust ran out. In the case of the starters, they just were exhausted from all of the innings they had to throw the previous season. It was worth those innings obviously since we won the whole thing, but it catches up to you eventually.

The Kalapse Forumla: http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/shareit/yB88b

 

Politte, 11 inherited runs http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3799

 

Randy, 20 inherited http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=6122

I think in the case of some of the bullpen guys, the pixie dust ran out. In the case of the starters, they just were exhausted from all of the innings they had to throw the previous season. It was worth those innings obviously since we won the whole thing, but it catches up to you eventually.

 

I don't know if I buy that. They played 12 post season games. That's 3 additional starts each for the rotation of 4 used in the playoffs.

I don't know if I buy that. They played 12 post season games. That's 3 additional starts each for the rotation of 4 used in the playoffs.

 

Those are MEGA high stress innings, we had guys throwing complete games and long outings quite a bit that postseason too of course, and I think the regular season inning totals (which also including a lot of high stress innings due to Cleveland, as well as a lot of close games because our offense wasn't dominant, to say the least) were also very high that year, even with as good as our bullpen was. The little things really add up.

Edited June 30, 201015 yr by whitesoxfan101

Williams - 22 inherited runners, 13 have scored - 59% IS%

Politte - 11 inherited runners, 3 scored - 27% IS%

 

If you add Williams' 13 that were inherited to his total runs and earn runs scored, it jumps to 29 runs and 27 runs respectively allowed in 25 innings.

With Politte, his jumps to 33 and 32 respectively...

 

 

thus, Williams' IS+RS average is 10.44, and his IS+ER average is 9.72

Politte's IS+RS average is 9.90 and his IS+ER average is 9.6

 

Kalapse may argue that Williams is worse, because it is a relievers job to get out of a jam because Politte still did a better job of it than Williams. I'd argue that he received half of the inherited runners that Williams did, and thus, with his peripherals, he would have been far more likely to allow more than 3 runners to score on his next 11 inherited. I'd also say that, independently, Politte was a far worse reliever than Williams, simply due to the tendency of Politte to come into a bases empty situation and allow runs to score, whereas with Williams, it's far more likely for him to come in with runners already on base and then allow them to score.

 

In the end, we'd be arguing a relatively moot point. The fact of the matter is, the White Sox have had two of the worst relievers in probably the past 25 or so years within 5 years of each other. That is sad.

 

However, only one of these guys was actually given his job in the bullpen, rather than earned. Williams had no business being on this roster to begin with, which makes his statistics all the more tragic.

 

quick edit: Politte's WPA in 2006 was -1. Williams's WPA this year is -0.5. This has a bit to do with Politte pitching later in close games, opposed to Williams pitching earlier in blowouts, but that could really be all the more reason Politte is worse.

 

Man, B-R has gotten completely f***ing awesome in the past year or two.

Edited June 30, 201015 yr by witesoxfan

I'm usually not one to jump on whipping boy bandwagons (remember how everybody piled on Rios last year?), but for my whipping boy dollar I'd say 50/50 right now between Teahen and Linebrink.

 

Teahen for the obvious why-did-we-get-this-guy? factor; Linebrink because every time he comes into a game I cover my eyes.

 

But in the past five years I can't think of anybody who exemplifies futility more than: McDougal. Geesh. Which is who Linebrink reminds me of.

I'm usually not one to jump on whipping boy bandwagons (remember how everybody piled on Rios last year?), but for my whipping boy dollar I'd say 50/50 right now between Teahen and Linebrink.

 

Teahen for the obvious why-did-we-get-this-guy? factor; Linebrink because every time he comes into a game I cover my eyes.

 

But in the past five years I can't think of anybody who exemplifies futility more than: McDougal. Geesh. Which is who Linebrink reminds me of.

 

I actually think the hate on Teahen and Linebrink is a bit unique. The hate for them is also in large part hate on Kenny Williams because both acquisitions were dreaded and expected to fail from the moment they were made by the vast majority of people. Kenny had his reasons to make the moves (the bullpen sucked in '07, wanted to move Beckham to 2nd base this year), but both appeared to be disasters waiting to happen from day 1, and have not dissapointed thusfar.

Edited June 30, 201015 yr by whitesoxfan101

If anything, he's been over-loved.

I would over-love his wife - 30 seconds and it would be over.

Williams - 22 inherited runners, 13 have scored - 59% IS%

Politte - 11 inherited runners, 3 scored - 27% IS%

 

If you add Williams' 13 that were inherited to his total runs and earn runs scored, it jumps to 29 runs and 27 runs respectively allowed in 25 innings.

With Politte, his jumps to 33 and 32 respectively...

 

 

thus, Williams' IS+RS average is 10.44, and his IS+ER average is 9.72

Politte's IS+RS average is 9.90 and his IS+ER average is 9.6

 

Kalapse may argue that Williams is worse, because it is a relievers job to get out of a jam because Politte still did a better job of it than Williams. I'd argue that he received half of the inherited runners that Williams did, and thus, with his peripherals, he would have been far more likely to allow more than 3 runners to score on his next 11 inherited. I'd also say that, independently, Politte was a far worse reliever than Williams, simply due to the tendency of Politte to come into a bases empty situation and allow runs to score, whereas with Williams, it's far more likely for him to come in with runners already on base and then allow them to score.

 

In the end, we'd be arguing a relatively moot point. The fact of the matter is, the White Sox have had two of the worst relievers in probably the past 25 or so years within 5 years of each other. That is sad.

However, only one of these guys was actually given his job in the bullpen, rather than earned. Williams had no business being on this roster to begin with, which makes his statistics all the more tragic.

 

quick edit: Politte's WPA in 2006 was -1. Williams's WPA this year is -0.5. This has a bit to do with Politte pitching later in close games, opposed to Williams pitching earlier in blowouts, but that could really be all the more reason Politte is worse.

 

Man, B-R has gotten completely f***ing awesome in the past year or two.

 

Agreed on all points.

 

My one ever gripe with B-R was lack of uniform numbers, then they add that.

No love for Rick White?

2006 was probably Ozzie over anyone to be honest because of the Mackowiak-Anderson bulls*** he was pulling in cf.

2006 was probably Ozzie over anyone to be honest because of the Mackowiak-Anderson bulls*** he was pulling in cf.

 

He definitely played a very large role. I've never liked him as a game manager since then.

Someone should try to put a whipping boy team for Soxtalk...

Someone should try to put a whipping boy team for Soxtalk...

 

It would have a system overload on relief pitchers and outfielders. Javy Vazquez would definitely be the starting pitcher too. You'd probably have Pablo Ozuna in there somewhere too, and if the people here were like me in the early 2000's, D'Angelo Jimenez gets a spot as well.

Edited June 30, 201015 yr by whitesoxfan101

D'Angelo wasn't that bad of a player though.

i always hated jeff liefer.

Brian Daubach anyone?

The daubster? He was the man.

I didn't mind Daubach. D'Angelo wasn't terrible, but he's to this day the dumbest White Sox player I've ever seen, so he drove me nuts.

The daubster? He was the man.

 

To me, he was the second coming of Jeff Liefer.

I actually think the hate on Teahen and Linebrink is a bit unique. The hate for them is also in large part hate on Kenny Williams because both acquisitions were dreaded and expected to fail from the moment they were made by the vast majority of people. Kenny had his reasons to make the moves (the bullpen sucked in '07, wanted to move Beckham to 2nd base this year), but both appeared to be disasters waiting to happen from day 1, and have not dissapointed thusfar.

 

I knew nothing about them prior to them coming here; I assumed they must be good or else why would KW want them? Um...

 

Teahen is just a mystery. I don't get it.

mike jackson was hot garbage in his short time here