Players who failed when it counts/against the Twins

[Milkman delivers]

Again, I don't care what the Twins do in the playoffs. And I never said I wanted to emulate them. I've said repeatedly that the Phillies are the team I want to emulate because they're outstanding and I feel getting to their level is realistic, unlike the Yankees because they play by a totally different set of rules.

[Balta1701]

I can't believe Ozzie melted down in a playoff game to the point that he got himself kicked out of the game! How pathetic is that!

[Milkman delivers]

I can't believe Ozzie melted down in a playoff game to the point that he got himself kicked out of the game! How pathetic is that!

 

This seems unnecessary and an obvious way to get a rise out of people.

[Kyyle23]

Maddon and Gardenhire both got ejected yesterday. I cant recall a time I saw a playoff manager get the heave-ho, much less 2 in one day

[Balta1701]

This seems unnecessary and an obvious way to get a rise out of people.

That sums up how I feel about the commentary on the Twins/White Sox matchup too.

[Milkman delivers]

That sums up how I feel about the commentary on the Twins/White Sox matchup too.

 

Then perhaps you should avoid the forum in which the White Sox are always discussed?

 

I see no reason why a post regarding mismanagement of a team that isn't the White Sox should be mentioned in the White Sox forum unless it were only meant to bait certain posters. I'm not a mod, though, so what do I know.

[joeynach]

Again, I don't care what the Twins do in the playoffs. And I never said I wanted to emulate them. I've said repeatedly that the Phillies are the team I want to emulate because they're outstanding and I feel getting to their level is realistic, unlike the Yankees because they play by a totally different set of rules.

 

I dont disagree with you, I think the Phillies are a fine model. They seem to make moves with winning the world series in mind, not just winning the division or getting to the post season. However, I read a really good article I think in Forbes that highlighted how the Phillies were able to make a sustained playoff runs, become and stay a world series contender, and really cement themselves as baseball elite. The article highlighted the sacrifices and strategic planning that was set forth in the late 1990's that laid the foundation for the Phillies team you see today and the last 5 or 6 seasons.

 

Basically the article said the Phillies success in 2008, 2009, 2010 all started when the team made a conscious decision back in the mid to late 1990s to be bad. They traded away their best player in Schilling, committed to reduce payroll, and planned to stock pile high draft picks for next several years. The idea was that they didnt feel they could compete in the current landscape, both economically speaking and player personnel wise. They felt trapped by poor attendance and a dilapidated stadium. So knowing that their new stadium was a few years away, they decided to bite the bullet, put up with fans and media getting on their backs about fielding a poor team and plan for the future. Low and behold they get their new stadium (I think 2003), revenue increases considerably, and they have draft picks such as Utley, Howard, Hamels, Rollins, Werth, Victorino etc on the rise. Their young picks turn out to be stars and they decide to both lock up their own guys with mutually beneficial long term contracts, but also begin to spend $$ effectively to surround their talented core with solid veteran and role players (Lee, Halladay, Ibanez, Polanco, Lidge, etc) . They make splashes for real impact players, the type than can win the World Series for you not just help you get past the Braves. Several 90+ Win seasons, division championships, 1 WS title, 2 NL Pennants later the Phillies plan has come to fruition and the city, team and fans are reaping the reward of effective planning and PLENTY OF PATIENCE!!

Edited October 9, 2010 by joeynach

[southsider2k5]

Then perhaps you should avoid the forum in which the White Sox are always discussed?

 

I see no reason why a post regarding mismanagement of a team that isn't the White Sox should be mentioned in the White Sox forum unless it were only meant to bait certain posters. I'm not a mod, though, so what do I know.

 

So people are allowed to compare them to other teams, but when the other teams comparisons are used back, that doesn't belong... Sure that makes sense.

[Milkman delivers]

So people are allowed to compare them to other teams, but when the other teams comparisons are used back, that doesn't belong... Sure that makes sense.

 

He was talking about the Twins under the "guise" of talking about Ozzie in the White Sox portion of the site in order to take a dig at people. I don't see how it's not considered baiting, other than the fact that he's an admin. If he had said the same thing in the Diamond Club in one of the threads discussing the Twins, it would make sense. That was just an obvious bait, sorry.

[Milkman delivers]

I dont disagree with you, I think the Phillies are a fine model. They seem to make moves with winning the world series in mind, not just winning the division or getting to the post season. However, I read a really good article I think in Forbes that highlighted how the Phillies were able to make a sustained playoff runs, become and stay a world series contender, and really cement themselves as baseball elite. The article highlighted the sacrifices and strategic planning that was set forth in the late 1990's that laid the foundation for the Phillies team you see today and the last 5 or 6 seasons.

 

Basically the article said the Phillies success in 2008, 2009, 2010 all started when the team made a conscious decision back in the mid to late 1990s to be bad. They traded away their best player in Schilling, committed to reduce payroll, and planned to stock pile high draft picks for next several years. The idea was that they didnt feel they could compete in the current landscape, both economically speaking and player personnel wise. They felt trapped by poor attendance and a dilapidated stadium. So knowing that their new stadium was a few years away, they decided to bite the bullet, put up with fans and media getting on their backs about fielding a poor team and plan for the future. Low and behold they get their new stadium (I think 2003), revenue increases considerably, and they have draft picks such as Utley, Howard, Hamels, Rollins, Werth, Victorino etc on the rise. Their young picks turn out to be stars and they decide to both lock up their own guys with mutually beneficial long term contracts, but also begin to spend $$ effectively to surround their talented core with solid veteran and role players (Lee, Halladay, Ibanez, Polanco, Lidge, etc) . They make splashes for real impact players, the type than can win the World Series for you not just help you get past the Braves. Several 90+ Win seasons, division championships, 1 WS title, 2 NL Pennants later the Phillies plan has come to fruition and the city, team and fans are reaping the reward of effective planning and PLENTY OF PATIENCE!!

 

Man, I've wanted the Sox to do something like this for the past few seasons. Nobody has the patience for it, though.

[JorgeFabregas]

The Phils also bring up their best young players slowly. They are very careful about the arbitration clock and get cheap years out of guys in their prime.

[Balta1701]

The Phils also bring up their best young players slowly. They are very careful about the arbitration clock and get cheap years out of guys in their prime.

Gavin Floyd was almost raced to the majors, he made his debut at 21, and there is plenty of reason to think that the rapid promotions figured into his struggles when he arrived. Cole Hamels made his debut at 22. Victorino made his debut at 22, Howard much later...but both of them had someone quite good blocking them (Aaron "Career year" Rowand and Jim Thome).

[Jordan4life_2007]

Man, I've wanted the Sox to do something like this for the past few seasons. Nobody has the patience for it, though.

 

Which is hard for me to understand. We've been to the playoffs 5 times in the last 27 years and yet this organization/fan base feel we're above and beyond a rebuild, or even a semi-rebuild. All I know is I've had it with these empty 2nd/3rd place finishes.

[gatnom]

Which is hard for me to understand. We've been to the playoffs 5 times in the last 27 years and yet this organization/fan base feel we're above and beyond a rebuild, or even a semi-rebuild. All I know is I've had it with these empty 2nd/3rd place finishes.

 

Who cares. The Twins get destroyed in the playoffs every year by the Yankees

[JorgeFabregas]

Gavin Floyd was almost raced to the majors, he made his debut at 21, and there is plenty of reason to think that the rapid promotions figured into his struggles when he arrived. Cole Hamels made his debut at 22. Victorino made his debut at 22, Howard much later...but both of them had someone quite good blocking them (Aaron "Career year" Rowand and Jim Thome).

 

I suppose I should have specified position players. Pitchers have such a high injury risk that it's typically not worth it to fuss over service time. If they're ready, they're ready.

 

Victorino made his debut at 22 for the San Diego Padres as a Rule 5 guy. He made his Phillie debut at age 24 as a September call-up.

 

Utley was a first-round pick and went to college, but played about one level per year on his way up. In fact, he played almost 240 games in AAA despite having success his first year there.

 

If Howard were on the White Sox (and they played in the NL), I suspect they would have tried him out in left field or traded him rather than let him play so many games in AAA.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

I dont disagree with you, I think the Phillies are a fine model. They seem to make moves with winning the world series in mind, not just winning the division or getting to the post season. However, I read a really good article I think in Forbes that highlighted how the Phillies were able to make a sustained playoff runs, become and stay a world series contender, and really cement themselves as baseball elite. The article highlighted the sacrifices and strategic planning that was set forth in the late 1990's that laid the foundation for the Phillies team you see today and the last 5 or 6 seasons.

 

Basically the article said the Phillies success in 2008, 2009, 2010 all started when the team made a conscious decision back in the mid to late 1990s to be bad. They traded away their best player in Schilling, committed to reduce payroll, and planned to stock pile high draft picks for next several years. The idea was that they didnt feel they could compete in the current landscape, both economically speaking and player personnel wise. They felt trapped by poor attendance and a dilapidated stadium. So knowing that their new stadium was a few years away, they decided to bite the bullet, put up with fans and media getting on their backs about fielding a poor team and plan for the future. Low and behold they get their new stadium (I think 2003), revenue increases considerably, and they have draft picks such as Utley, Howard, Hamels, Rollins, Werth, Victorino etc on the rise. Their young picks turn out to be stars and they decide to both lock up their own guys with mutually beneficial long term contracts, but also begin to spend $$ effectively to surround their talented core with solid veteran and role players (Lee, Halladay, Ibanez, Polanco, Lidge, etc) . They make splashes for real impact players, the type than can win the World Series for you not just help you get past the Braves. Several 90+ Win seasons, division championships, 1 WS title, 2 NL Pennants later the Phillies plan has come to fruition and the city, team and fans are reaping the reward of effective planning and PLENTY OF PATIENCE!!

 

Pat Gillick is pretty damn good too.

[balfanman]

Pat Gillick is pretty damn good too.

 

I will not argue that Gillick is good, but wasn't he the one that never gave Freddy Garcia a physical prior to dealing for him?

[witesoxfan]

I will not argue that Gillick is good, but wasn't he the one that never gave Freddy Garcia a physical prior to dealing for him?

 

Yep. Billy Beane is the same GM that traded Carlos Gonzalez, Houston Street, and Greg Smith for 4 months of Matt Holliday, and Kenny Williams is the same GM that gave up Ryan Sweeney, Gio Gonzalez, and Fautino De Los Santos for a year of Nick Swisher and then traded him for Wilson Betemit, Jhonny Nunez, and Jeff Marquez.

 

GMs make assumptions and mistakes. Gillick is no different.

[joeynach]

Yep. Billy Beane is the same GM that traded Carlos Gonzalez, Houston Street, and Greg Smith for 4 months of Matt Holliday, and Kenny Williams is the same GM that gave up Ryan Sweeney, Gio Gonzalez, and Fautino De Los Santos for a year of Nick Swisher and then traded him for Wilson Betemit, Jhonny Nunez, and Jeff Marquez.

 

GMs make assumptions and mistakes. Gillick is no different.

 

KW also got Thornton for peanuts, got Quentin for peanuts, got Floyd for a broke down Freddy, got Danks for McCarthy, found Alexi from Cuba, found Jenks on a waiver wire, drafted Sale, etc. KW is a good GM but by no means perfect, sometimes he strikes out too. In fact from his track record It wouldn't be far fetched to say that he better at making the under the radar none dazzling moves than he is at making the blockbuster big name moves.

[Jordan4life_2007]

KW also got Thornton for peanuts, got Quentin for peanuts, got Floyd for a broke down Freddy, got Danks for McCarthy, found Alexi from Cuba, found Jenks on a waiver wire, drafted Sale, etc. KW is a good GM but by no means perfect, sometimes he strikes out too. In fact from his track record It wouldn't be far fetched to say that he better at making the under the radar none dazzling moves than he is at making the blockbuster big name moves.

 

The fact that you have to go back to 2005/2006 proves the point. And the jury is still out on Sale. And I will give him credit for Ramirez. CQ for peanuts? That still has yet to be decided. And CQ has been worth a bag of peanuts the last two years anyway. But since the 2007 off-season, KW has been bad, bad, bad.

Edited October 16, 2010 by Jordan4life

[Jordan4life_2007]

Yep. Billy Beane is the same GM that traded Carlos Gonzalez, Houston Street, and Greg Smith for 4 months of Matt Holliday, and Kenny Williams is the same GM that gave up Ryan Sweeney, Gio Gonzalez, and Fautino De Los Santos for a year of Nick Swisher and then traded him for Wilson Betemit, Jhonny Nunez, and Jeff Marquez.

 

GMs make assumptions and mistakes. Gillick is no different.

 

That's a fireable offense.

[Balta1701]

That's a fireable offense.

Might have saved his career. Imagine him being in Oakland for 81 games instead of Coors Field? He might be no better than a platoon player.

[SoxAce]

Might have saved his career. Imagine him being in Oakland for 81 games instead of Coors Field? He might be no better than a platoon player.

 

Balta FTW!