Alomar may prove to be a better manager than Martinez none of us know. What we do know is that Alomar would be the comfortable pick for this organization. I think they need something more than "comfortable" at this point in time even if that comes with more risk.

I dunno, cleve ands been in a selling mode since 07, and they've been trying to bring people along te whole time, Marte, Cabrera, Carmona, Choo, Santana, LaPorta, Perez, Masterson, probably 5 other guys I'm forgetting. The difference is that they haven't had a successful core in the way the rays have, and the reasons why are worth considering too.

Well, the whole point is not who has worked with more young players.

 

It's who has managed to actually be successful with more young players...

 

There is more evidence of that in TB than in Cleveland.

Alomar may prove to be a better manager than Martinez none of us know. What we do know is that Alomar would be the comfortable pick for this organization. I think they need something more than "comfortable" at this point in time even if that comes with more risk.

Congrats, this makes sense.

Well, the whole point is not who has worked with more young players.

 

It's who has managed to actually be successful with more young players...

 

There is more evidence of that in TB than in Cleveland.

There is something to be said for knowing how to deal with a young player who comes up and doesn't live up to the hype immediately too, and that has been seen more in Cleveland and Chicago than Tampa.

There is something to be said for knowing how to deal with a young player who comes up and doesn't live up to the hype immediately too, and that has been seen more in Cleveland and Chicago than Tampa.

Yeah, that's a nice thing and all...but I think I'll still stick with what Martinez has going for him.

Jesus...take an f***ing chill pill!!!! Like there's not enough ad nauseum on every little topic. I just don't buy the fact that just because Martinez has been bench coach for X years and Alomar has only been X...makes Martinez better or more qualified. Alomar has been around the game long enough...and around plenty of coaches to know what he'd like to see/do as a manager and in my opinion well qualified. Have at it....

If it didn't happen every single time I get involved in a discussion on here it wouldn't piss me off but it's constant and it serves no one, just kills good dialogue.

 

How does being signifcanlty more experienced not make Dave Martinez better qualified? That's pretty huge. There's a ton of responsibility that comes along with being a manager, Dave Martinez has basically lived it for the past 4 years while Sandy has merely viewed it, I imagine there's going to be a lot more growing pains with Alomar.

As someone brought up previously...it's not like we have all young players anyway. A core of veterans remain (that remains to be seen until spring though). But the likelihood most will be around still this spring. In that case advantage Alomar IMO...

So which is it, DA? Is it just baseball, or is it "just because you stand next to Maddon doesn't mean you are the next Joe Maddon..."?

 

You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit.

 

The "it's just baseball" line might sit with me better if we didn't just go through a few years of some head-scratchers.

 

I agree that Dave Martinez is probably not going to be Joe Maddon cloned, as the guy's brilliance extends well-beyond just the statistics (I think he's a freaking master motivator), but Maddon also strikes me as someone who would take the responsibility of mentoring a younger coach very seriously (just as he learned from Scoscia).

 

I think the model of mentor/student seems to work pretty well as far as coaching goes and we've seen it work across all sports. Signing Martinez up would probably be a pretty safe bet.

I didn't contradict myself at all. A few posts mentioned bench coach vs. first base coach. I said I'd be fine with either, but I guess you missed that. My point was Sandy Alomar Jr. has plenty of experience and background to run a team. Toronto interviewed both last year and like Alomar a little more, but obviously not enough to hire him. Since KW seemingly knows Sandy a little better, I think if Sandy wants the job, unless Martinez blows them away in the interview, its his .

Well, the whole point is not who has worked with more young players.

 

It's who has managed to actually be successful with more young players...

 

There is more evidence of that in TB than in Cleveland.

At least with the Sox everyone blamed the hitting coach or praised the pitching coach. Now you're saying the reason Evan Longoria is a great player is because of the bench coach? We have no idea the effect Martinez or Alomar has had on young players. None.

If it didn't happen every single time I get involved in a discussion on here it wouldn't piss me off but it's constant and it serves no one, just kills good dialogue.

 

How does being signifcanlty more experienced not make Dave Martinez better qualified? That's pretty huge. There's a ton of responsibility that comes along with being a manager, Dave Martinez has basically lived it for the past 4 years while Sandy has merely viewed it, I imagine there's going to be a lot more growing pains with Alomar.

What were Martinez's responsibilities?

At least with the Sox everyone blamed the hitting coach or praised the pitching coach. Now you're saying the reason Evan Longoria is a great player is because of the bench coach? We have no idea the effect Martinez or Alomar has had on young players. None.

I never said anything of the sort. Evan Longoria is a monster player, and most-likely would be regardless of who had the pleasure of drafting him.

 

What I said was that Martinez has been part of a culture that has handled several young players extraordinarily well. This probably occurred as a matter of necessity more than anything, but the fact is that Tampa managed to make the playoffs in a division where the two biggest superpowers in baseball reside with an abundance of young players coming through their system.

I never said anything of the sort. Evan Longoria is a monster player, and most-likely would be regardless of who had the pleasure of drafting him.

 

What I said was that Martinez has been part of a culture that has handled several young players extraordinarily well. This probably occurred as a matter of necessity more than anything, but the fact is that Tampa managed to make the playoffs in a division where the two biggest superpowers in baseball reside with an abundance of young players coming through their system.

Maybe JR should have his eye on some of their development people. One White Sox problem is it seems a lot of the guys called up in recent years looked like they started playing baseball 2 weeks before they came up. Throwing to wrong bases, missing cutoff men, getting picked off, horrid baserunning............Maybe that's why De Aza looked good, he was developed by someone else. It may be reason to be at least slightly excited about the 2 they received for Ozzie.

 

As for the teacher/mentor thing, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Maddon is a very unique guy. I doubt Martinez has his intellect, and while he can learn from Maddon, when he gets a manager gig, he's got to be himself, not try to be Joe Maddon, but as I said, if the Sox hired him I wouldn't be upset. I think the end of the KW/Ozzie daily garbage just made this team better, and I think they will hire a good guy.

Edited September 30, 201114 yr by Dick Allen

Maybe JR should have his eye on some of their development people. One White Sox problem is it seems a lot of the guys called up in recent years looked like they started playing baseball 2 weeks before they came up. Throwing to wrong bases, missing cutoff men, getting picked off, horrid baserunning............Maybe that's why De Aza looked good, he was developed by someone else. It may be reason to be at least slightly excited about the 2 they received for Ozzie.

Well it's no secret that there are some significant questions about the White Sox' developmental prowess.

 

One thing at a time though.

 

Considering the direction this team is likely to go in over the course of this manager's tenure, I'd definitely prefer that he has shown a willingness and an ability to work well with young players.

 

I don't think anyone believes that hiring a new manager is going to cure all of our ills. But nothing will ever change unless you start addressing the problems somewhere. This is a great opportunity to begin doing that.

lol@this thread. All I know is that a terrible manager no longer heads my favorite baseball team. For that, I'm happy.

How come Daryl Boston isn't getting mentioned? I thought Cowley said he'd be KW's puppet. I did get a laugh when Ozzie told the Miami media his situation wasn't about money. I guess he forgot what he said a couple days before.

I always thought of Mariotti as the hitting coach.

 

 

Or the catching coach...

It breaks down to this:

 

Which managerial tree is more impressive?

 

Mike Scioscia --> Joe Maddon --> Dave Martinez

 

or

 

Frank Robinson --> Manny Acta --> Sandy Alomar, Jr.

 

Quite frankly, I'd love either one but Martinez comes from a far more impressive tree.

I never said anything of the sort. Evan Longoria is a monster player, and most-likely would be regardless of who had the pleasure of drafting him.

 

What I said was that Martinez has been part of a culture that has handled several young players extraordinarily well. This probably occurred as a matter of necessity more than anything, but the fact is that Tampa managed to make the playoffs in a division where the two biggest superpowers in baseball reside with an abundance of young players coming through their system.

 

Not to use a college basketball analogy but Roy Williams at Kansas had a winning "culture" to the tune of about an .820 win percentage. Virtually all of his assistant coaches were huge flops when they became head coaches including Matt Doherty who just about killed Carolina's program he was so bad.

How come Daryl Boston isn't getting mentioned? I thought Cowley said he'd be KW's puppet. I did get a laugh when Ozzie told the Miami media his situation wasn't about money. I guess he forgot what he said a couple days before.

 

I don't know why u guys care what Ozzie says.

Ozzie is Ozzie. He talks a mile and minute and even he has no idea what's coming out of his mouth.

 

I loved the Miami Herald story. They asked his wife if he's ever quiet.

She said, 'When he's asleep.'

 

Not to use a college basketball analogy but Roy Williams at Kansas had a winning "culture" to the tune of about an .820 win percentage. Virtually all of his assistant coaches were huge flops when they became head coaches including Matt Doherty who just about killed Carolina's program he was so bad.

Fair point, but I think there are some coaches that don't do a particularly good job with mentoring their subordinates. Maybe Williams is one of them.

I don't know why u guys care what Ozzie says.

Ozzie is Ozzie. He talks a mile and minute and even he has no idea what's coming out of his mouth.

 

I loved the Miami Herald story. They asked his wife if he's ever quiet.

She said, 'When he's asleep.'

 

Hahahahahahaha

 

That's so funny because that's why he's gone and we don't have more than 2 division titles in the past 10 years.

 

Also, his wife could learn to shut up too. She helped start the feud.

It breaks down to this:

 

Which managerial tree is more impressive?

 

Mike Scioscia --> Joe Maddon --> Dave Martinez

 

or

 

Frank Robinson --> Manny Acta --> Sandy Alomar, Jr.

 

Quite frankly, I'd love either one but Martinez comes from a far more impressive tree.

 

Dont forget Ron Roenicke. He was Scioscia's bench coach as well. He's done a brilliant job in MIL.

Martinez has the better pedigree --hands down.

Alomar may prove to be a better manager than Martinez none of us know. What we do know is that Alomar would be the comfortable pick for this organization. I think they need something more than "comfortable" at this point in time even if that comes with more risk.

 

 

I like the assumed risk here of Martinez more than the considerably higher risk of trading Ramirez and Santos for prospects with KW as GM.

Not to use a college basketball analogy but Roy Williams at Kansas had a winning "culture" to the tune of about an .820 win percentage. Virtually all of his assistant coaches were huge flops when they became head coaches including Matt Doherty who just about killed Carolina's program he was so bad.

Coach K's guys haven't done all that well either, but who knows? If the Sox have good players, no matter who they hire, will be considered a good manager. If they have bad players, they will wind up getting waxed. Joe Torre was an idiot when he had bad players and a HOF manager when he had great ones. There are probably a lot of guys like him.

Edited September 30, 201114 yr by Dick Allen

Not to use a college basketball analogy but Roy Williams at Kansas had a winning "culture" to the tune of about an .820 win percentage. Virtually all of his assistant coaches were huge flops when they became head coaches including Matt Doherty who just about killed Carolina's program he was so bad.

 

 

COACH K's tree at DUKE hasn't been so successful either

 

Brey foundered originally but has done well recently at ND

Quin Snyder, enough said

Tommy Amaker, failed at Michigan, "banished" to Harvard

David Henderson has done fairly well at a smaller school, Delaware I think

Cris Collins, Wojo and Dawkins

 

 

If you want a successful coaching tree, try Hayden Fry's at Iowa from the late 80's/early 90's

 

Kirk Ferentz, Iowa, 1999–present

Bob Stoops, Oklahoma, 1999–present

Mike Stoops, Arizona, 2004–present

Bill Snyder, Kansas State, 1989–2005, 2009–present

Barry Alvarez, Wisconsin, 1990–2005

Bret Bielema, Wisconsin, 2006–present

Dan McCarney, Iowa State, 1995–2006, North Texas 2011–present

Chuck Long, San Diego State, 2006–2008

Jim Leavitt, South Florida, 1996–2009

Bo Pelini, Nebraska, 2008–present

 

 

I'd put a LITTLE more credibility into the coaching tree idea for football than for baseball. That said, it's certainly far from irrelevant.

Edited September 30, 201114 yr by caulfield12