Trayvon Martin

[Balta1701]

I assume you don't have kids based on this, but seriously...were you EVER a kid? Did you ever have any sort of, "what to do in an attempted kidnapping training", or "what to do when a stranger tries to give you candy" lessons? Or even, what to do if you're actively being stalked? Seriously. I figured this was something every parent put their kids through.

 

You can't control being suspicious to someone, but you CAN attract attention if some creep ass is following you. You yell, you scream, you make noise...you attract attention, you bang on a neighbors door, a strangers door, whoever has lights on, or...if you're close enough to home, you go there. If you're caught by a person like this, yes, you defend yourself and yes, that CAN lead to death. In short, you do what you have to do to get away, or find help/attract help, or defend yourself when necessary.

Oh, so he's supposed to start running and then head up to a door?

 

Yeah, that's a great way to look suspicious. You've just gone another step and confirmed that he's up to no good, he's not just on a public sidewalk, now the suspicious kid has gone and hid next to the house he's going to break into.

[lostfan]

While I can never "get that" and say that "I know you you feel", since as you know I'm a white guy, the question posed is what you can you tell your kids...well, that's a few things you can tell your kids, regardless of their skin color.

 

And you're right, a lot of things haven't changed, and I feel it will be a long time before they ever *truly* do.

 

I plan on telling my kids a lot of these same things when they're old enough, despite being white...you still have to be careful out there...something we've all heard countless times.

When I saw people bring up the THC thing I thought "and? So what? If you'd have shot me one night when I was 17 I'd have had THC in my system too. So that makes it all ok?" It also makes the point for them whether they realize it or not. They're saying "we'll he had it coming anyway, good riddance"

[iamshack]

I assume you don't have kids based on this, but seriously...were you EVER a kid? Did you ever have any sort of, "what to do in an attempted kidnapping training", or "what to do when a stranger tries to give you candy" lessons? Or even, what to do if you're actively being stalked? Seriously. I figured this was something every parent put their kids through.

 

You can't control being suspicious to someone, but you CAN attract attention if some creep ass is following you. You yell, you scream, you make noise...you attract attention, you bang on a neighbors door, a strangers door, whoever has lights on, or...if you're close enough to home, you go there. If you're caught by a person like this, yes, you defend yourself and yes, that CAN lead to death. In short, you do what you have to do to get away, or find help/attract help, or defend yourself when necessary.

These are teenagers, not 7 year olds.

 

If you're 17 and you're screaming, people think you're going to be the troublemaker, not the one in trouble.

 

The only thing you can do if this is happening, is call the police and either try to get to a public place or try to get somewhere where the threatening person cannot attack you. And if you're a teenager, especially a minority teenager, that probably makes you look even more suspicious.

 

Bottom line is, there is no way "neighborhood watch" people should be engaging people, especially with guns, because they simply do not have the appropriate training to do so. That is how this is best avoided.

[Marty34]

One of the things someone wrote on your facebook page really hit me.

 

One poster basically said "I'm the mother of a teenage son. What do I tell my son he should do to avoid this?"

 

I keep running through the options. Run? Martin did that, the response was "oh he's running", running or hiding makes him a suspect more. Approach the strange guy in the car who's following you?Crazy. Defend yourself? That just gives the guy a reason to shoot. Wait and let him do whatever he's going to do? Why on Earth do you assume this guy following you is a good guy and not out to kidnap you?

 

The only things I can come up with are don't be "suspicious", which seems kinda difficult...and carry a gun yourself.

 

You tell your kid it's an abberation because that's what it is.

[iamshack]

You tell your kid it's an abberation because that's what it is.

Tell that to the parents of the dead kids.

[Marty34]

Tell that to the parents of the dead kids.

 

What can you tell those parents?

[iamshack]

What can you tell those parents?

You don't have to tell them anything if it didn't happen in the first place.

[zenryan]

Quite a few things wrong with this.

 

1.) Again, it wasn't stalking.

2.) Being told not to do it has no bearing on the case.

3.) You have no idea who initiated the physical contact.

4.) They never even brought up the SYG defense.

 

 

 

I think its pretty he didnt follow this case. Just got the bullet points from whatever news agency he followed 16 months ago.

 

 

[Balta1701]

You tell your kid it's an abberation because that's what it is.

It's sad how completely normal random shootings of unarmed, unthreatening people are in this country.

[BigSqwert]

You tell your kid it's an abberation because that's what it is.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Quite a few things wrong with this.

 

1.) Again, it wasn't stalking.

2.) Being told not to do it has no bearing on the case.

3.) You have no idea who initiated the physical contact.

4.) They never even brought up the SYG defense.

 

 

1: Yeah, it was. Maybe not in white folks land. But we know better.

 

2: I didn't say it did. He got ballsy because he had heat.

 

3: He followed the kid when he didn't have to. He called 911. Go the f*** in your house and let the cops do their job (I figure you of all people should get that).

 

4: I didn't say they did. That was more or less me pointing out the wack ass Florida laws that let wannabe dumbasses carry heat and then a catastrophe happens and here we are?

 

I think its pretty he didnt follow this case. Just got the bullet points from whatever news agency he followed 16 months ago.

 

Yeah, don't tell me what I did or didn't follow. You don't dick about how much I followed the case.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Jordan4life

[BigSqwert]

Sorry, dude. It's not stalking.

 

If some dude was following your girlfriend around in a car and then on foot, with a loaded gun, you might change your tune.

[Jake]

If some dude was following your girlfriend around in a car and then on foot, with a loaded gun, you might change your tune.

 

And since we like to blame rape victims for their trauma, we'd probably also be dealing with another non-conviction where half of the USA thinks it was the right call

[iamshack]

So clearly, the answer is to prevent all crime

Yes, that would be ideal.

 

There certainly is nothing wrong with arming your children with a plan, as opposed to determining "this woud never happen to my child."

 

I still cannot wrap my mind around the notion that Zimmerman's behavior is considered by many as non-threatening.

[Quin]

Pretty much. Grown man stalks teenager (something he only had the balls to do because he was packing). Grown man is told over the phone not to pursue teenager but still does. Grown man initiates physical confrontation with teeanger. Grown man apparently underestimates teeanager and gets his ass kicked (again, grown man doesn't confront teenager in the first place if he's not packing). Grown man pulls out his trump card and shoots teenager. Grown man, who has everything to lose, makes up whatever bulls*** story that best serves his purpose. No witnesses. Stand your ground law. And the other party is murdered. Yeah, that's a wrap.

 

This.

 

If a dude is stalking me (seriously, that s*** is stalking) and has a gun, then gets close and starts a physical altercation...I'm doing what Martin did.

[BigSqwert]

No, I wouldn't, as I know the definition of stalking. Seems nobody wants to read an actual statute.

 

Thanks Judge Wapner. I'd venture to guess that 98% of Americans would consider that stalking. Thanks for clearing it up.

[Jake]

I didn't think we were debating the legal definition of stalking anymore, but rather whether Zimmerman's actions were actually reasonable in the real world

[MexSoxFan#1]

Can we just give away Florida and Texas to Mexico?

No thanks, we'll pass...

[MexSoxFan#1]

I am inviting all libs over for a pity party. You guys need to clean your diapers.

Yeah, f*ck you.

[mr_genius]

the prosecution was overzealous with the 2nd degree murder charge. they should have gone with manslaughter and proved that out IMO

[Balta1701]

the prosecution was overzealous with the 2nd degree murder charge. they should have gone with manslaughter and proved that out IMO

This might well have been a good strategy. The jury seems to have had no idea what the judge's manslaughter related instructions were, and they don't seem to make sense upon reading anyway.

 

That said, they'd still have a mountain to climb. In Florida, if a killer claims it was in self defense, the law assumes the killing was unless the state can prove otherwise. The burden of proof to establish that a killing wasn't self defense is on the state. That's a really rough case to make in this situation even for manslaughter.

[LittleHurt05]

Can we just give away Florida and Texas to Mexico?

 

 

You'd give up Austin that easily?

 

But yeah, the moral of the story is Florida is the worst state in the union by far and it proves it again and again.

[DukeNukeEm]

You'd give up Austin that easily?

 

But yeah, the moral of the story is Florida is the worst state in the union by far and it proves it again and again.

Yea! How do you get $1b in unfunded pension liabilities or let one of your cities churn out 500+ homicides a year? I mean even the last two FL governors have wound up being convicted in federal court! f***in' Flori--oh wait...

Edited July 15, 2013 by DukeNukeEm

[Jake]

Good for them. Since the majority are ignorant of the law, we should all be. Fantastic argument.

 

I think you're having a different argument than everyone else. We're talking about what the law should be, not what it is. We're saying that if what Zimmerman was doing isn't legally classified as threatening behavior, then it should be.

[G&T]

This might well have been a good strategy. The jury seems to have had no idea what the judge's manslaughter related instructions were, and they don't seem to make sense upon reading anyway.

 

That said, they'd still have a mountain to climb. In Florida, if a killer claims it was in self defense, the law assumes the killing was unless the state can prove otherwise. The burden of proof to establish that a killing wasn't self defense is on the state. That's a really rough case to make in this situation even for manslaughter.

 

Well that has nothing to do with Florida law, that's how it works anywhere. The law requires that the govt proves its case. People always come up with some defense, usually by pointing to another guy. The govt has to show that it was THIS defendant, thereby proving it wasn't someone else.