bigruss Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Mind blown. This won't sink in for a few days still, I can deal with losing but this was something good that we could look forward to in the near and far future. Ugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 4, 2012 -> 05:32 PM) It may be hard to believe, I want KW gone as much as you do, but Chris Sale with a tender elbow being made a closer is going to get him fired about as much as the churro stand selling stale churros would get him fired. Sale (as a starter) was the shining star of hope for this team. They are 29th in attendance because there is such little hope. Now that Sale is back to close . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 4, 2012 -> 05:29 PM) That's pretty much the definition of the "Verducci effect". So say Wow all you want. You don't "Get yourself ready to throw as many innings in 2 months as you threw all of last year" by working out in the offseason. He's tender after ONE MONTH of real games. He was such an injury concern he slipped down to the Sox when he was drafted. Its supposedly voodoo to draft a closer in the first round, but the way the game is played, the closer is about as important to winning as almost anybody. He'll be the closer, and if he stays healthy, probably one of the best in baseball. That will be a lot better than many of the teams will get from players they picked while passing on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 4, 2012 -> 05:29 PM) Let him become a HOF closer. There's no shame in that. You don't rush into making a guy with #1 stuff into a closer, unless he's proven multiple times he can't handle a starter's workload. That's my beef with this decision. Shut him down him down for a while and try him again as a starter later this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 4, 2012 -> 10:37 PM) Sale (as a starter) was the shining star of hope for this team. They are 29th in attendance because there is such little hope. Now that Sale is back to close . . . Too early to start doing 2005 reunions at the games to try and draw fans? Sox fans don't care about hope or the future, with regards to attendance. All they care about is if the team is winning at that time. Sox could have the top Bryce Harper and Strasburg playing tonight, and if they were 10-15, attendance would be mediocre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ May 4, 2012 -> 05:38 PM) You don't rush into making a guy with #1 stuff into a closer, unless he's proven multiple times he can't handle a starter's workload. That's my beef with this decision. Shut him down him down for a while and try him again as a starter later this year. Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ May 4, 2012 -> 10:38 PM) You don't rush into making a guy with #1 stuff into a closer, unless he's proven multiple times he can't handle a starter's workload. That's my beef with this decision. Shut him down him down for a while and try him again as a starter later this year. There's definitely more to it than what we've heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 4, 2012 -> 05:29 PM) That's pretty much the definition of the "Verducci effect". So say Wow all you want. You don't "Get yourself ready to throw as many innings in 2 months as you threw all of last year" by working out in the offseason. So by that logic, there's no way he gets hurt as a SP in AAA last year right? No chance at all. What difference is him starting this year in MLB vs starting last year in AAA? If he is that fragile, he just would have gotten hurt in AAA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 4, 2012 -> 05:37 PM) Sale (as a starter) was the shining star of hope for this team. They are 29th in attendance because there is such little hope. Now that Sale is back to close . . . Maybe they will sell more tickets if Sale is as important to ticket sales as you believe. Most games he doesn't take the field, now there will usually be a chance to see him pitch. Personally I don't think Sale means anything to attendance. Most people who attend a game only because he's going to pitch are probably on his pass list anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 4, 2012 -> 10:40 PM) Yep. That's the thing, everyone in baseball knows a starting pitcher is more valuable than a closer. Thus, the more you take a step back and think about it, the more it makes you wonder what it really going on with his arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 BTW, no one has said this, but hopefully Axelrod makes the most out of this chance and can make himself a contender for future rotations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (fathom @ May 4, 2012 -> 05:39 PM) Too early to start doing 2005 reunions at the games to try and draw fans? Sox fans don't care about hope or the future, with regards to attendance. All they care about is if the team is winning at that time. Sox could have the top Bryce Harper and Strasburg playing tonight, and if they were 10-15, attendance would be mediocre. There's truth to that, but I'm telling you Sox fans know that this isn't going to work long-term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 4, 2012 -> 04:37 PM) He's tender after ONE MONTH of real games. He was such an injury concern he slipped down to the Sox when he was drafted. Its supposedly voodoo to draft a closer in the first round, but the way the game is played, the closer is about as important to winning as almost anybody. He'll be the closer, and if he stays healthy, probably one of the best in baseball. That will be a lot better than many of the teams will get from players they picked while passing on him. I tend to agree...I don't think this has anything to do with the innings he's thrown this year..I think it's just a coincidence....there are all sorts of questions regarding Sale's ability to hold up as a starter that have nothing to do with whether or not he came out of the pen last year or not. All I know is this has me befuddled...our pen is not in such a shape nor are we at any point in the season where there is enough urgency to put him in the closer role if they are truly concerned about him being currently seriously injured...why not just shut him down and re-evaluate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 I feel like I just got punched in the face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 4, 2012 -> 10:44 PM) There's truth to that, but I'm telling you Sox fans know that this isn't going to work long-term. But if you don't think it's going to work long-term (ie: 2013-2014), wouldn't you want to attend the 2012 games where the team has better talent on the field (like games in which Peavy pitches)? I'm pretty sure we talked about this in the offseason, but I've never felt like Sox fans were more likely to attend games based on Buehrle pitching instead of Floyd that day, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 4, 2012 -> 05:40 PM) Maybe they will sell more tickets if Sale is as important to ticket sales as you believe. Most games he doesn't take the field, now there will usually be a chance to see him pitch. Personally I don't think Sale means anything to attendance. Most people who attend a game only because he's going to pitch are probably on his pass list anyway. A #1 starter is more important than a closer. The Sox aren't going to pay a pitcher more than Danks for the forseeable future so where they will find one is anybody's guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 I just heard Coop say they're doing it for Sale's career, not for the team. Truthfully, if Sale is informed and wants to continue starting at his own risk, why not let him? If anything, limit his pitch count to 90 and actually use some of those long relievers? To me, there was a way to do this without taking Sale out of the rotation permanantly this season. This team is going to get blown up real good by July 31st. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (fathom @ May 4, 2012 -> 05:46 PM) But if you don't think it's going to work long-term (ie: 2013-2014), wouldn't you want to attend the 2012 games where the team has better talent on the field (like games in which Peavy pitches)? I'm pretty sure we talked about this in the offseason, but I've never felt like Sox fans were more likely to attend games based on Buehrle pitching instead of Floyd that day, etc. They are that team in the middle this year that Kenny said he never wanted to be. They'll be much worse in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 4, 2012 -> 10:51 PM) They are that team in the middle this year that Kenny said he never wanted to be. They'll be much worse in the near future. Agreed, I don't think many on here would argue that point with you. It wouldn't be the wort thing in the world for this team to be 10+ games out of contention by the deadline. Another .500 team without being active at the deadline would be a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ May 4, 2012 -> 05:45 PM) I tend to agree...I don't think this has anything to do with the innings he's thrown this year..I think it's just a coincidence....there are all sorts of questions regarding Sale's ability to hold up as a starter that have nothing to do with whether or not he came out of the pen last year or not. All I know is this has me befuddled...our pen is not in such a shape nor are we at any point in the season where there is enough urgency to put him in the closer role if they are truly concerned about him being currently seriously injured...why not just shut him down and re-evaluate? The other thing is now there are 4 lefties. Rivera getting hurt, maybe Thornton is heading to NY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (fathom @ May 4, 2012 -> 04:52 PM) It's cause they completely botched how they've handled Sale. He should have been starting in the minors last year so that he was ready to log starter's innings this year. This isn't exactly a new topic of conversation on here, and quite frankly, I'm sure a lot of people on here think it was just a matter of time before Sale got injured as a starter. And yes, you absolutely DL him instead of putting him in stressful situations (like which every other team in the majors would do). Also, Sox would probably feel more comfortable with putting him on the DL if not for the idiotic decision of making Santiago a closer out of ST. The only reason he was willing to sign for as little as he did with the Sox is because they offered him a quick road to the majors in relief. In your world we don't draft him, because his demands would have been out of our ballpark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 4, 2012 -> 10:54 PM) The only reason he was willing to sign for as little as he did with the Sox is because they offered him a quick road to the majors in relief. In your world we don't draft him, because his demands would have been out of our ballpark. Yes, for 2010, it was fine he was in relief. 2011 was the wasted year, and you know a lot of us were saying that last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Would Marty and Fathom be happier if everyone just said, "We suck. We've always sucked. We always will suck. Fire everyone!" Jesus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 4, 2012 -> 05:52 PM) The other thing is now there are 4 lefties. Rivera getting hurt, maybe Thornton is heading to NY. The way Floyd owns the Red Sox, you'd think the Yankees may want to do a package deal with Floyd/Thornton. We get Phil Hughes in a change of scenary situation and some of those young pitchers, although I hear Banuelos and Betances have been bad this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 4, 2012 -> 05:47 PM) A #1 starter is more important than a closer. The Sox aren't going to pay a pitcher more than Danks for the forseeable future so where they will find one is anybody's guess. A #1 starter gets you 190+ innings a year. I think there's very legitmate concern Sale will never be able to do that. He has #1 stuff in my mind, but the question has always been how will he hold up? I think a tender elbow after 32 innings have the Sox freaked out, so they are going to go with the the scenerio that will most likely give Sale, and therefore the team, the most sustained success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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