Will Ohman

[Balta1701]

I tried to find it on baseball-reference, but I was unsuccessful. Anyone know what Ohman's velocity was in 2008 as opposed to now?

You have to use fangraphs for that.

 

2007 89.4

2008 89.7

2009 90.9

2010 90.3

2011 90.1

2012 88.5

 

He's a little lower than last year but there's a sample size thing happening too. He's not outside the range of what he threw in previous stints.

[Dick Allen]

In 2009 with the Dodgers and Joe Torre, he has the exact same breakdown as this season, 54 batters faced 32 LH,and his results are the same. So apparently Ohman has been misused his entire career.

 

I do suppose you can make an argument that if you put him in a game, he's being misused. But the fact is no other manager in his career has him facing a larger percentage of LH hitters than Ventura.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Dick Allen

[fathom]

You have to use fangraphs for that.

 

2007 89.4

2008 89.7

2009 90.9

2010 90.3

2011 90.1

2012 88.5

 

He's a little lower than last year but there's a sample size thing happening too. He's not outside the range of what he threw in previous stints.

 

Thanks

[Wedge]

I do suppose you can make an argument that if you put him in a game, he's being misused. But the fact is no other manager in his career has him facing a larger percentage of LH hitters than Ventura.

 

So basically the issue is simply that Ohman is a s***ty relief pitcher.

 

Seems like Ventura is running into similar problems that Guillen ran into: a half full bullpen and two or three holes in the lineup. Tough for anyone to manage around that.

[Dick Allen]

So basically the issue is simply that Ohman is a s***ty relief pitcher.

 

Seems like Ventura is running into similar problems that Guillen ran into: a half full bullpen and two or three holes in the lineup. Tough for anyone to manage around that.

That's the problem every manager has with loogys. There are more RH hitters than LH, and if they are using them with the game on the line, usually a manager has a replacement for an average or poor LH hitter. The only way Ohman faces 90% LH hitters is if he's facing guys like Fielder or Ichiro or Hamilton, so he's going to have to get RH hitters out at least somewhat. His career numbers indicate he is exactly what you described.

[ScottyDo]

That's the problem every manager has with loogys. There are more RH hitters than LH, and if they are using them with the game on the line, usually a manager has a replacement for an average or poor LH hitter. The only way Ohman faces 90% LH hitters is if he's facing guys like Fielder or Ichiro or Hamilton, so he's going to have to get RH hitters out at least somewhat. His career numbers indicate he is exactly what you described.

Or, if he pitches a grand total of like 30 innings over the whole season

[Greg Hibbard]

I had a big problem with Ventura saying after the game that "you don't try to win them all" (or whatever he said)

 

Listen, first-year-manager-at-any-level, a division game against the presumptive best team where you have a lead at home - I'm sorry but that's one you are going to try to win if it means you have no one left in the pen for tomorrow.

 

This underscores my entire problem with the philosophy this season from the general manager down. It makes zero sense to have Ventura learn on-the-job while we are doing this in-between semi-competing semi-retooling bulls***.

 

Kenny has set him up to fail miserably in big-game situations like this because he has zero experience.

 

On topic, f*** a bunch of Will Ohman.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Greg Hibbard

[Greg Hibbard]

LH OBA against Ohman is .250, btw. I think it's worth pointing this out.

[Dick Allen]

I had a big problem with Ventura saying after the game that "you don't try to win them all" (or whatever he said)

 

Listen, first-year-manager-at-any-level, a division game against the presumptive best team where you have a lead at home - I'm sorry but that's one you are going to try to win if it means you have no one left in the pen for tomorrow.

 

This underscores my entire problem with the philosophy this season from the general manager down. It makes zero sense to have Ventura learn on-the-job while we are doing this in-between semi-competing semi-retooling bulls***.

 

Kenny has set him up to fail miserably in big-game situations like this because he has zero experience.

 

On topic, f*** a bunch of Will Ohman.

Yet, as far as anyone can tell, you've never been a coach or a manager in professional baseball and you seem to know exactly how to run the bullpen.

[Greg Hibbard]

Yet, as far as anyone can tell, you've never been a coach or a manager in professional baseball and you seem to know exactly how to run the bullpen.

 

I never said that, straw man, but I can definitely tell when a manager brutally mishandles a baseball game with an extremely dumb decision, and then makes an even dumber rationalization.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Greg Hibbard

[Dick Allen]

I never said that, straw man, but I can definitely tell when a manager brutally mishandles a baseball game with an extremely dumb decision, and then makes an even dumber rationalization.

So you know exactly how every guy in the bullpen was feeling yesterday, and who was available, and if he went to others how they would have shut the door. I'd rather they beat Detroit than the Angels, but if it could screw up the bullpen for mulitple games, sometimes you can't be afraid to lose. Nothing was guaranteed no matter who he put in. Just about everyone in the bullpen has been knocked around lately. I don't like Ohman on the roster, but it is what it is. I just don't understand playing the lack of experience card when you yourself have less.

[southsider2k5]

Interesting article here, if nothing else for the fact that Spiegal pretty clearly states that Cooper manages the pitchers, and Ventura has no say at all. I remember that being stated early in the Guillen tenure.

 

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/05/16/spi...ie-we-expected/

[Dick Allen]

Interesting article here, if nothing else for the fact that Spiegal pretty clearly states that Cooper manages the pitchers, and Ventura has no say at all. I remember that being stated early in the Guillen tenure.

 

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/05/16/spi...ie-we-expected/

If this is 100% true, I fully expect Robin to resign at the end of the season.

[Greg Hibbard]

So you know exactly how every guy in the bullpen was feeling yesterday, and who was available, and if he went to others how they would have shut the door. I'd rather they beat Detroit than the Angels, but if it could screw up the bullpen for mulitple games, sometimes you can't be afraid to lose. Nothing was guaranteed no matter who he put in. Just about everyone in the bullpen has been knocked around lately. I don't like Ohman on the roster, but it is what it is. I just don't understand playing the lack of experience card when you yourself have less.

 

With that in mind, is anyone on this site qualified to criticize, well, anything? The line of reasoning that it takes experience to comment on experience invalidates virtually all conversation here. I have no experience hitting a baseball at a major league level. I have no experience fielding a ball at the major league level. I have no experience broadcasting on a major cable network. I have no experience umpiring a game.

 

Ventura has no experience managing and had made some seemingly big errors thus far that might be due to a lack of experience. It would seem appropriate to discuss that. Using Ohman against righties, at all, when others seemed available seems to be a glaring one. Does it seem that way to you, or not?

 

Perhaps now we could get to the actual discussion?

Edited May 16, 2012 by Greg Hibbard

[Dick Allen]

With that in mind, is anyone on this site qualified to criticize, well, anything? The line of reasoning that it takes experience to comment on experience invalidates virtually all conversation here.

 

Ventura has no experience managing and had made some seemingly big errors thus far. Using Ohman against righties at all when others seem available seems to be a glaring one. Does it seem that way to you, or not?

 

Perhaps now we could get to the actual discussion?

Criticizing is fine, but calling out his "lack of experience" when you don't have anywhere near his experience and acting like you have all the answers, is like the guy who never goes to games but complains about the attendance. As I pointed out earlier, Ventura has used Ohman vs. RH hitters at a smaller or equal clip than any manager Ohman has ever had. He's at a 59.25% vs LH hitters this year. It would be a career high. Torre used him for the exact same percentage and number of hitters faced (54) in 2009. There are also things we do not know. There may have been relievers you think were available or should have been available, that were not. The bottom line is if Will Ohman can't get a RH hitter out, he shouldn't be in the major leagues.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Dick Allen

[Greg Hibbard]

Criticizing is fine, but calling out his "lack of experience" when you don't have anywhere near his experience is like the guy who never goes to games but complains about the attendance. As I pointed out earlier, Ventura has used Ohman vs. RH hitters at a smaller or equal clip than any manager Ohman has ever had. He's at a 59.25% vs LH hitters this year. It would be a career high. Torre used him for the exact same percentage and number of hitters faced (54) in 2009. There are also things we do not know. There may have been relievers you think were available or should have been available, that were not. The bottom line is if Will Ohman can't get a RH hitter out, he shouldn't be in the major leagues.

 

 

Do you think that comparing the percentage he has been used against LH in the first 36 games of 2012 against percentages he has been used during 162 games in other seasons might be flawed?

[Dick Allen]

Do you think that comparing the percentage he has been used against LH in the first 36 games of 2012 against percentages he has been used during 162 games in other seasons might be flawed?

[/quote

 

Why? If its wrong to have him face a RH hitter, he's been misused. If Ventura is misusing him and has him facing LH hitters more often than anyone else, he's always been misused. Its not as if he's a guy who comes in to pitch 4 innings at a time. Is it OK then to have him face RHP in July and August but not April and May?

[fathom]

Why? If its wrong to have him face a RH hitter, he's been misused. If Ventura is misusing him and has him facing LH hitters more often than anyone else, he's always been misused. Its not as if he's a guy who comes in to pitch 4 innings at a time. Is it OK then to have him face RHP in July and August but not April and May?

 

What about the possiblity that Ohman just isn't as good as he was 5 years ago, and his stuff is getting a lot more hittable for righties? 3 homers allowed in 21 at bats against righties so far this year. That's why I asked about his velocity so far this year.

[Dick Allen]

What about the possiblity that Ohman just isn't as good as he was 5 years ago, and his stuff is getting a lot more hittable for righties? 3 homers allowed in 21 at bats against righties so far this year. That's why I asked about his velocity so far this year.

That's possible, but then he shouldn't be on the team. He can't be batting practice against RH hitters because no matter how hard you try, he's going to be facing them.

 

He really has never been very good.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Dick Allen

[Wedge]

With that in mind, is anyone on this site qualified to criticize, well, anything? The line of reasoning that it takes experience to comment on experience invalidates virtually all conversation here. I have no experience hitting a baseball at a major league level. I have no experience fielding a ball at the major league level. I have no experience broadcasting on a major cable network. I have no experience umpiring a game.

 

Ventura has no experience managing and had made some seemingly big errors thus far that might be due to a lack of experience. It would seem appropriate to discuss that. Using Ohman against righties, at all, when others seemed available seems to be a glaring one. Does it seem that way to you, or not?

 

Perhaps now we could get to the actual discussion?

 

I think it's pretty fair to criticize roster construction. Going into a season with 2 great relievers (Crain, Thornton), 4 unknowns (Stewart, Reed, Santiago, Jones) and Will Ohman is a pretty awful bullpen plan if you expect your team to contend.

 

When it comes to in game decision making though, it's all hypotheticals on top of hypotheticals. If somebody else had been brought in instead of Ohman, maybe we would have won yesterday. Maybe not. Maybe bringing in a tired releiver would have led to an injury. Maybe doing it your way would have won yesterday, but lost two other games we won doing it Cooper/Guillen/Ventura's way. The likeliest case (in my view) is doing it your way just means that Ohman has to go out and pitch against righties (which a MLB reliever HAS to do at some point during a 162 game season) and lose some other winnable game down the line.

[southsider2k5]

I think it's pretty fair to criticize roster construction. Going into a season with 2 great relievers (Crain, Thornton), 4 unknowns (Stewart, Reed, Santiago, Jones) and Will Ohman is a pretty awful bullpen plan if you expect your team to contend.

 

When it comes to in game decision making though, it's all hypotheticals on top of hypotheticals. If somebody else had been brought in instead of Ohman, maybe we would have won yesterday. Maybe not. Maybe bringing in a tired releiver would have led to an injury. Maybe doing it your way would have won yesterday, but lost two other games we won doing it Cooper/Guillen/Ventura's way. The likeliest case (in my view) is doing it your way just means that Ohman has to go out and pitch against righties (which a MLB reliever HAS to do at some point during a 162 game season) and lose some other winnable game down the line.

 

They didn't.

[Jake]

Where is DJ Carrasco when you need him

[caulfield12]

Where is DJ Carrasco when you need him

 

Zach Stewart

[Jake]

Zach Stewart

 

I've never seen Zach Stewart b**** slap a charging batter

[JorgeFabregas]

He stinks but there are a lot of similar pitchers in baseball.

Look at Dotel. He stinks. Every team has some guys who suck in the pen.

Um, what?