Dick Allen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 01:35 PM) What does that have to do with this discussion? And if I needed a home run, Dunn. Your answer shows you just want to argue. And what does the sustaining question have to do with the argument? If anything it shows if Konerko is playing at an unsustainable level, he must be having an outstanding, therefore grade A season. If Dunn is playing at a sustainable level, its probably not outstanding. Edited June 4, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 01:30 PM) And secondly, let me ask you this...who do you think has a better chance to sustain their current production for the remainder of the year, Dunn or Konerko? Dunn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 12:37 PM) Your answer shows you just want to argue. First of all, is there something wrong with arguing? Is this not a message board? Have I stated anything at all which has not been based on statistics? Secondly, how does my answer show that? Thirdly, your attempts to rephrase the argument into questions like "If you had to take one player's baseball card to a deserted island, who's would it be"? just shows that your argument is weaker than mine. Edited June 4, 2012 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 01:39 PM) First of all, is there something wrong with arguing? Is this not a message board? Have I stated anything at all which has not been based on statistics? Secondly, how does my answer show that? You're just trying to get under people's skin. I won't fall for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 01:43 PM) You're just trying to get under people's skin. I won't fall for it. Hah! I didn't ask you to participate in this thread, DA...you chose to debate the point with me. At every step of the way I've backed up my points with statistics. If the mere fact that I am correct and you are wrong gets under your skin, then yes, I guess I am just trying to get under your skin, DA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 4, 2012 Author Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 01:29 PM) Doesn't what happened last year factor into his "expectations"? It does to some extent. But for me, it doesn't erase his entire career either. It is becoming obvious that last year was a horrible Ozzie based aberration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 01:39 PM) First of all, is there something wrong with arguing? Is this not a message board? Have I stated anything at all which has not been based on statistics? Secondly, how does my answer show that? Thirdly, your attempts to rephrase the argument into questions like "If you had to take one player's baseball card to a deserted island, who's would it be"? just shows that your argument is weaker than mine. Where did I mention baseball cards? You were mentioning Konerko and Dunn. I said who would you rather have up at the plate? You took Dunn. I doubt Adam's mom would give that answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 4, 2012 Author Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 01:30 PM) And secondly, let me ask you this...who do you think has a better chance to sustain their current production for the remainder of the year, Dunn or Konerko? Dunn. Because his body of work is more in line with what he has always done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 01:45 PM) Hah! I didn't ask you to participate in this thread, DA...you chose to debate the point with me. At every step of the way I've backed up my points with statistics. If the mere fact that I am correct and you are wrong gets under your skin, then yes, I guess I am just trying to get under your skin, DA. No, you don't get under my skin. I know the game you're playing. You're not as smart as you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 4, 2012 Author Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 01:35 PM) And I ask for the third time, from those of you saying he is merely getting a C right now, what numbers would Adam Dunn need to put up to get an A? How would a guy like Longoria get an A on this grade scale? Would he need to win the Triple Crown and hit .400 with 65 home runs? If his average were back towards .270, and his strikeouts weren't on pace to demolish the all-time record, I could go with more A material. The Longoria stuff is just a silly side bar and argumentative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 12:47 PM) Where did I mention baseball cards? You were mentioning Konerko and Dunn. I said who would you rather have up at the plate? You took Dunn. I doubt Adam's mom would give that answer. No, that is not what I said. Let me ask you this, DA...if what we're arguing is that these grades are all relative to expectations, than what does the question "Who would you rather have up at the plate" have to do with anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 01:51 PM) No, that is not what I said. Let me ask you this, DA...if what we're arguing is that these grades are all relative to expectations, than what does the question "Who would you rather have up at the plate" have to do with anything? Clearly if Dunn is having an A season, Konerko's is off the charts ungradable. Yet you are trying to find flaws with Paulie. The unsustainable argument is irrelative as he was able to sustain it for the grading period. Edited June 4, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 12:48 PM) If his average were back towards .270, and his strikeouts weren't on pace to demolish the all-time record, I could go with more A material. The Longoria stuff is just a silly side bar and argumentative. I'm just trying to get a feel for your grading scale...I've made the argument that it is almost impossible, minus cherry-picking a player who is producing at an unsustainable rate, to earn an A in your grading scale, if you are an elite player. I think that is a legitimate flaw in your scale. You haven't really addressed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 12:54 PM) Clearly if Dunn is having an A season, Konerko's is off the charts ungradable. His BA, OPB, and OPS numbers are absolutely phenomenal. And also unsustainable for him. That being said, despite all that, his run production isn't on pace to really be outside of his usual norms. The one area where you do see an effect of that incredible slash line is in runs scored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 01:55 PM) I'm just trying to get a feel for your grading scale...I've made the argument that it is almost impossible, minus cherry-picking a player who is producing at an unsustainable rate, to earn an A in your grading scale, if you are an elite player. I think that is a legitimate flaw in your scale. You haven't really addressed that. What does unsustainable or sustainable have to do with the grade for the first 1/3 of the season? And just because something appears to be more sustainable, doesn't necessarily mean it will be sustained. Edited June 4, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 12:54 PM) Clearly if Dunn is having an A season, Konerko's is off the charts ungradable. Yet you are trying to find flaws with Paulie. The unsustainable argument is irrelative as he was able to sustain it for the grading period. Hah...fine, in the official SS2k 1/3 of the year grading period, PK gets an A and Dunn gets a C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 12:58 PM) What does unsustainable or sustainable have to do with the grade for the first 1/3 of the season? And just because something appears to be more sustainable, doesn't necessarily mean it will be sustained. Because unfortunately ss2k's grades for the 1/3 of the season don't mean anything....but what Dunn and Konerko do over the course of the entire season actually does... I'm assuming the only purpose of actually placing grades on players after 1/3 of the season is to somehow assess what we have here going forward? And if that is indeed the case, sustainable vs. unsustainable would certainly be relevant topics to the discussion. Edited June 4, 2012 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 4, 2012 Author Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 01:55 PM) I'm just trying to get a feel for your grading scale...I've made the argument that it is almost impossible, minus cherry-picking a player who is producing at an unsustainable rate, to earn an A in your grading scale, if you are an elite player. I think that is a legitimate flaw in your scale. You haven't really addressed that. And in your unknown scale it would be seemingly impossible for bench and low ceiling players to earn anything but a low grade. Then again, I had a decent amount of A's, and two of them were from star players. Makes that argument kind of weak, don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I would change Adam Dunn to an A. His strikeouts are expected of him. As long as he hits 40+ HR and knocks in a ton of runs, he can strike out 240 times and it wouldn't be that bad. Also, I give Reed a B. He has been great in closing situations. He has only allowed runs in 3 appearances this year, all of them in non-save situations since he was named the closer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 02:03 PM) Because unfortunately ss2k's grades for the 1/3 of the season don't mean anything....but what Dunn and Konerko do over the course of the entire season actually does... I'm assuming the only purpose of actually placing grades on players after 1/3 of the season is to somehow assess what we have here going forward? And if that is indeed the case, sustainable vs. unsustainable would certainly be relevant topics to the discussion. None of these grades mean anything and you're the one arguing about them the most. What the W-L at the end of the season is at is the only grade that matters. Just because Dunn's numbers are more "sustainable" doesn't mean jack. At the end of the season, assuming no injuries, you know Konerko will have better numbers than Dunn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) Great thread. I'd move Dunn up to a B. I wouldn't even argue at A minus. I might move Crain to a C. He's just another guy, nothing special or even B-like. Your grades were tough but pretty accurate I think. Of the everyday nine, I have positive feelings about Tank, DeAza and Rios in the outfield; positive feelings about Paulie in the infield, positive feelings about AJ at catcher and Dunn at DH. Negative feelings about Morel/Hudson at third, Lexi at short and Beckham at second. Positive feelings about Sale, Peavy; neutral about Danks and Floyd and Humber. Positive feelings about Reed. Edited June 4, 2012 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 01:11 PM) And in your unknown scale it would be seemingly impossible for bench and low ceiling players to earn anything but a low grade. Then again, I had a decent amount of A's, and two of them were from star players. Makes that argument kind of weak, don't you think? No...it actually makes you an inconsistent grader... Not sure why Jake would get an A but Adam a C...I mean the last few years have really skewed Jake's career totals...He's nowhere near his numbers from 2004... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 01:15 PM) None of these grades mean anything and you're the one arguing about them the most. What the W-L at the end of the season is at is the only grade that matters. Just because Dunn's numbers are more "sustainable" doesn't mean jack. At the end of the season, assuming no injuries, you know Konerko will have better numbers than Dunn. I think the vast majority of posters would take my position over yours...but because I am vigorously debating that position, that makes me somehow wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 4, 2012 Author Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 02:27 PM) No...it actually makes you an inconsistent grader... Not sure why Jake would get an A but Adam a C...I mean the last few years have really skewed Jake's career totals...He's nowhere near his numbers from 2004... he is also in the top five of the Cy Young race, and has a career best WHIP, is .25 ERA better than even his SD numbers, along with a career bests in K/9, BB/9, and K/BB. Plus a close to career best in HR/9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 4, 2012 -> 02:28 PM) I think the vast majority of posters would take my position over yours...but because I am vigorously debating that position, that makes me somehow wrong... You really are a piece of work. You know who has numbers even more sustainable than Adam Dunn? Brent Morel. He gets an A+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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