Kevin Johnson's highest PER was 23.7, and his career mark was 20.7 Chris Paul's lowest mark was 22.0, and his career mark is 25.5 (high of 30). In his second year, Kyrie Irving's PER is almost as high as KJ's best mark.

Nice. Paul, with his 25.5 Career PER must be the best PG ever then. And Isiah with his career 18 PER or whatever must be really low on your list of PGs. How about the fact that Nash's career PER is lower than KJs. His career high in PER is only 0.1 higher than KJs. Interesting.

 

It's also an easier era for PGs. They're not getting hounded in the backcourt and they aren't getting murdered on drives to the hole (while having to take it to the cup on great centers. Not guys like Joel Anthony and Omer Asik)

Yeah, I'm so not getting back into the old timers, BACK IN MY DAY arguments again.

You provide no real insight anyway besides what your eyes seem to believe. No biggie. I've seen no evidence provided by you and you basically respond to none of the arguments against the new era of basketball, because it's difficult.

Ok, SS2k5, LeBron is nowhere near the shooter Jordan was.

 

But meanwhile...

 

Through 9 Years in the Leauge

 

Shooting: Jordan: .589 TS% vs. LeBron: .569 TS%. Edge Jordan.

Shot Blocker: Jordan: 1.0 BLKPG vs. LeBron: 0.8 BLKPG. Edge Jordan.

Defender: Jordan: 6 NBA All-Defensive 1st Team & DPOY, DRtg 103, DWS 41.0 vs. LeBron 4 NBA All-Defensive Team, DRtg 102, DWS 43.1. Edge Jordan (DRtg is too close for a team based stat to give LeBron the edge).

Rebounder: Jordan: 9.5 TRB% vs. LeBron: 10.5 TRB%. Edge LeBron

Faster: Jordan: 4.3 40-yd dash vs. LeBron: 4.6 40-yd dash. Edge Jordan

Stronger: Don't have anything to clarify this, but I'll give to the man 50 pounds heavier. Edge LeBron.

Playermaker/Passer: No way to quantify it, but Jordan averaged 8 APG when he played point. He played more off the ball though. I'll give you passer/point man, but sure as hell won't give you playmaker over Jordan. Tie 1-1.

 

As for leader? We'll go with 3-0 in the Finals for this one. Better leader gets better results.

 

So far: Jordan 5, LeBron 3.

 

Faster and strong don't really even matter in comparing the two. There have been fast players who never did anything and monstrously strong players who did nothing. Now it's 4-2. LeBron as a forward should be a better rebounder and shot blocker than Jordan, he's in more position to do so, but he only prevails in one. Guards have a lot harder time winning DPOY than forwards, and Jordan had to beat out Mark Eaton and Hakeem Olajuwon, who are better defenders then the players LeBron has had to beat out.

 

Now, a few other things...

 

Steals: Jordan: 2.7 SPG vs. LeBron: 1.7 SPG - Jordan

Win Shares: Jordan: 147.6 vs LeBron: 133.3 - Jordan

Net Rtg (ORtg - DRtg): Jordan 121 - 103 = + 18 vs. LeBron 115 - 102 = +13. - Jordan

Scoring: Jordan 32.3 PPG vs. LeBron 24.9 PPG - Jordan

WS/48: Jordan .274 vs. LeBron .233 - Jordan

PER: Jordan 29.8 vs LeBron 27.2 - Jordan

Playoff PER: Jordan 29.6 vs. LeBron 27.1 - Jordan

 

So final tally: Jordan 12, LeBron 3

 

Noah and Deng are All-Stars

Wait, you'd take Rose over Magic? I'm a homer and I love me some D, but prime Magic?

IMO he's one of the only guys in the discussion with those two. The only pg who is also an MVP caliber player. It could be homerish but I don't care.

 

I have mad respect for Isiah as well. His game is underrated nowadays.

Noah and Deng are All-Stars

 

I thought we'd get only one all-star, instead we get two. That's good I guess. The East is really weak this year.

Man, why did I actually have to be working for once and miss the opportunity to add another three pages to this?

 

A few random comments...

 

1) They used to actually be able to play defense and be physical with an offensive player. Bill Laimbeer would have been suspended more games than he played. It's a much different game.

 

2) The big men nowadays are horrible. They're athletic, but too many of these young guys spend more time shooting 3's than learning how to score in the post. Many of them are incredibly skinny too. Chris Bosh might have died if he had to guard Malone or Barkley.

 

3) The PG's are really good right now. Guys like Magic, Isaiah, Stockton, Kidd, Payton, ect would still be really good (Don't even give me the athleticism argument. Two words: Steve Nash). There just seems to be more depth to me than I can ever remember. Jrue Holiday is averaging 19-9 and he's not really in the discussion for top PG.

 

The wing players kind of suck though once you get past the top 5 or so. Who are your #4 SG and SF right now (I'm going to concede Kobe/Wade/Harden and Lebron/Durant/Melo, even though two of them haven't always been this good). Manu is the only other wing with a 20 PER, and he only plays 24 MPG. Does Rudy Gay really scare you? Monta Ellis? Paul Pierce and his walker? Paul George and his 41% shooting?

 

I'm too lazy to do the research right now, but it seems like there used to be more wings capable of 25 a night like the previously mentioned Pierce at his peak, guys like Allen, T-Mac, Carter, Redd, ect. That seems like a random lull more than anything though, especially given the freakishness of Lebron/Durant/Harden this year and Kobe refusing to fall off a cliff.

 

4) Come on now, you can't compare two guys with one ring between them to Jordan, at least not yet. Physically Lebron is more imposing, but isn't nearly the shooter and is still way behind in terms of playoff resume. Durant can score, but so could George Gervin. Let him win something of significance first. He's a brilliant scorer, but needs to get better in other areas of the game (creating for others, defense, getting better at getting open so he might actually get 20 shots a game).

 

Again, phenomenal players, but we're talking about Michael f***ing Jordan.

Edited January 25, 201313 yr by ZoomSlowik

These last few pages have started to make my head hurt.

Man, why did I actually have to be working for once and miss the opportunity to add another three pages to this?

 

A few random comments...

 

1) They used to actually be able to play defense and be physical with an offensive player. Bill Laimbeer would have been suspended more games than he played. It's a much different game.

 

2) The big men nowadays are horrible. They're athletic, but too many of these young guys spend more time shooting 3's than learning how to score in the post. Many of them are incredibly skinny too. Chris Bosh might have died if he had to guard Malone or Barkley.

 

3) The PG's are really good right now. Guys like Magic, Isaiah, Stockton, Kidd, Payton, ect would still be really good (Don't even give me the athleticism argument. Two words: Steve Nash). There just seems to be more depth to me than I can ever remember. Jrue Holiday is averaging 19-9 and he's not really in the discussion for top PG.

 

The wing players kind of suck though once you get past the top 5 or so. Who are your #4 SG and SF right now (I'm going to concede Kobe/Wade/Harden and Lebron/Durant/Melo, even though two of them haven't always been this good). Manu is the only other wing with a 20 PER, and he only plays 24 MPG. Does Rudy Gay really scare you? Monta Ellis? Paul Pierce and his walker? Paul George and his 41% shooting?

 

I'm too lazy to do the research right now, but it seems like there used to be more wings capable of 25 a night like the previously mentioned Pierce at his peak, guys like Allen, T-Mac, Carter, Redd, ect. That seems like a random lull more than anything though, especially given the freakishness of Lebron/Durant/Harden this year and Kobe refusing to fall off a cliff.

 

4) Come on now, you can't compare two guys with one ring between them to Jordan, at least not yet. Physically Lebron is more imposing, but isn't nearly the shooter and is still way behind in terms of playoff resume. Durant can score, but so could George Gervin. Let him win something of significance first. He's a brilliant scorer, but needs to get better in other areas of the game (creating for others, defense, getting better at getting open so he might actually get 20 shots a game).

 

Again, phenomenal players, but we're talking about Michael f***ing Jordan.

 

...and boom.

 

...and boom.

No that's zoom!

What is the NBA record for consecutive wins against a single team?

I believe 2.

There's gotta be 20 of these. I think he enjoyed this.

Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Shout out to bikram

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24m Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Shout out to Laird and gabby. Going to do pool jumps and cold tank right now. Thanks for all the knowledge. Family @GabbyReece @LairdLife

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27m Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Thank you to the bulls organization for believing in me. Family away from family

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1h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Shout out to @PRODIGYMOBBDEEP @therealstylesp for gettin me hype before my games

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1h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Shout out to toot lion and chi chi

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1h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Shout out to Colleen and Shannon. Big things to come @scpagels thanks for everything

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1h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Shout out to Lenny cook

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1h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Shout out to Debbie my other mother. Love u

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1h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

And to tajy woo @TajGibson22 and Kirky for always holdin me down. Black panthers all day

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1h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Thanks for dealing with all my s*** to Thibs and the whole staff. @nate_robinson @marcobelinelli @NazrMohammed @marquisteague25

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1h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

shout out to all my teammates who deal with my ups and downs everyday @ripcityhamilton @MisterCBooz @mr_2eight1 @LuolDeng9 @drose

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1h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Billy mac, mr cox and the poly prep family for giving me a second chance. Thank you so much

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1h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Marie Claire et papa jean and morfar. I know u guys are watching down toasting. @Predatorlaugh

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1h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Thanks to My gator family And coach d. Live in the moment. Shwaga

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1h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Hell's Kitchen what up @THEREALJOEBLACK. Peter. Big a. Timmy. Last but not least bobby potts for always being there for me. Lil bro forever

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2h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

My pops for always being there for me. Even though you're a pain in my ass sometimes. I love u yannick

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2h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Matty and Chu. A lot of sacrifice to get here. U guys know more than any1. Can't forget camp jei jr

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2h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Shout out to Skosky for bringing me uptown playing in every tournament. Kingdome. Rucker. Dykman

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2h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Thanks to mr green for making me take the 7 train every Saturday from Times Square to junction bld. Made me stronger. Love u for that

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2h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

Thanks to my two goons @mattrmattr @alexperris

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2h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

I want to thank all my boys for keeping me on track through the years. Even though we sometimes took steps back we always stayed on track.

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2h Joakim Noah Joakim Noah ‏@JoakimNoah

 

I can't believe it... This has been a long journey. I want to thank all my teammates and my mother for dealing with all my s***iness.

...and boom.

...goes the dynamite!

 

I never understood the "players today are bigger, faster and stronger than in MJ's era" argument. As if Jordan played 50 years ago. Yeah, sports medicine and modern nutrition and sports science has helped modern players in those areas but humans don't evolve every generation, that's just crazy talk.

 

If you look at the top 20 NBA players today and compare them to 1990's top 20, you ain't gonna see a difference in size, strength and speed. As if Carmelo Anthony is a way superior athlete to Scottie Pippen, for example. lol

Edited January 25, 201313 yr by MexSoxFan#1

...goes the dynamite!

 

I never understood the "players today are bigger, faster and stronger than in MJ's era" argument. As if Jordan played 50 years ago. Yeah, sports medicine and modern nutrition and sports science has helped modern players in those areas but humans don't evolve every generation, that's just crazy talk.

 

If you look at the top 20 NBA players today and compare them to 1990's top 20, you ain't gonna see a difference in size, strength and speed. As if Carmelo Anthony is a way superior athlete to Scottie Pippen, for example. lol

Scottie is a twig compared to Carmelo. Seriously. Scottie has some length but Carmelo has the same level of speed as scottie, maybe more, with vastly more power than Scottie had.

Scottie is a twig compared to Carmelo. Seriously. Scottie has some length but Carmelo has the same level of speed as scottie, maybe more, with vastly more power than Scottie had.

No way. They are the exact same size and Scottie defended 3 positions at an elite level. You don't remember Scottie accurately.

 

More power? Really?

Scottie is a twig compared to Carmelo. Seriously. Scottie has some length but Carmelo has the same level of speed as scottie, maybe more, with vastly more power than Scottie had.

Eh, it's useless. The 90s Bulls are beyond comparison apparently.

Eh, it's useless. The 90s Bulls are beyond comparison apparently.

 

They aren't beyond comparison, but they also are not a shadow of the current player mold that you are making them out to be

No way. They are the exact same size and Scottie defended 3 positions at an elite level. You don't remember Scottie accurately.

 

More power? Really?

basketball reference lists Scottie at 210, Carmelo at 230.

basketball reference lists Scottie at 210, Carmelo at 230.

I see Scottie at 228. Carmelo is soft, he doesn't play defense like Scottie at multiple positions and I don't see Melo as a "vastly" more powerful player at all.

Eh, it's useless. The 90s Bulls are beyond comparison apparently.

90's basketball > 2000-2013 basketball.

Eh, it's useless. The 90s Bulls are beyond comparison apparently.

 

Nah, just the 2010s Heat aren't better currently.

Edited January 25, 201313 yr by Quinarvy

90's basketball > 2000-2013 basketball.

Lol. Yes, that's not exaggerating at all. If Thomas, Jordan, Magic and Pippen represent the entire 90's then maybe I'd be on board. Of course that's not what anyone said, but hey, dynamite drop in.

Eh, it's useless. The 90s Bulls are beyond comparison apparently.

I'm pretty sure the records they have prove that the 90s Bulls are indeed beyond comparison.

They aren't beyond comparison, but they also are not a shadow of the current player mold that you are making them out to be

I may or may not have been trolling to ignite some fun conversation. Come on guys, Jordan's the f***ing bomb.

 

I could see LeBron getting to his level at some point, but it's Jordan.

I may or may not have been trolling to ignite some fun conversation. Come on guys, Jordan's the f***ing bomb.

 

I could see LeBron getting to his level at some point, but it's Jordan.

 

Member group: banned