White Sox winter meetings thread...

[Marty34]

So answer the question then. How many games would you be willing to sacrifice to see if that theory holds up?

 

Fielding isn't his problem.

[southsider2k5]

Fielding isn't his problem.

 

Eye test and advanced stats say otherwise.

[Balta1701]

So answer the question then. How many games would you be willing to sacrifice to see if that theory holds up?

Most of spring training.

[Marty34]

Eye test and advanced stats say otherwise.

 

His bat is the problem.

[Steve9347]

His bat is the problem.

It's funny how you make such a good point yet a group on the board will dispute it just because it's a Marty34 post. The dude had a 96 OPS+ last year, yet people think he's a superstar bat in waiting.

[ScottyDo]

It's funny how you make such a good point yet a group on the board will dispute it just because it's a Marty34 post. The dude had a 96 OPS+ last year, yet people think he's a superstar bat in waiting.

Well, now it's a Steve point so I'll argue with that instead

 

96 OPS+ with a lot of extreme streakiness. You can look at a young, inexperienced player who put up a month of 168 OPS+ and think his ceiling is extraordinarily high. He's absolutely inconsistent, so there's nobody saying his bat is perfect, but it's the "in the waiting" part that makes our position reasonable.

Edited December 19, 2012 by ScottyDo

[LittleHurt05]

It's funny how you make such a good point yet a group on the board will dispute it just because it's a Marty34 post. The dude had a 96 OPS+ last year, yet people think he's a superstar bat in waiting.

 

Don't forget about the .650 OPS vs. RHP

[southsider2k5]

It's funny how you make such a good point yet a group on the board will dispute it just because it's a Marty34 post. The dude had a 96 OPS+ last year, yet people think he's a superstar bat in waiting.

 

Its funny that people want the Sox to load up on prospects, but don't want to let them get more than 15 minutes before they are busts.

[witesoxfan]

Viciedo at 21 - .840 OPS, 106 PAs, MLB; .801 OPS, 363 PAs, minors

Viciedo at 22 - .641 OPS, 113 PAs, MLB; .856 OPS, 505 PAs, minors

Viciedo at 23 - .744 OPS, 543 PAs, MLB

 

Beltre at 21 - . 835 OPS, 575 PAs, MLB; 1.489 OPS, 19 PAs, minors

Beltre at 22 - .720 OPS, 515 PAs, MLB

Beltre at 23 - .729 OPS, 635 PAs, MLB

 

Also at 23 -

 

Viciedo vs LHP - 1.033, 133 PAs

Viciedo vs RHP - .650 OPS, 410 PAs

Beltre vs LHP - .749 OPS, 112 PAs

Beltre vs RHP - .713 OPS, 403 PAs

 

They've also had similar K and BB numbers too.

 

Just saying, it's not worth freaking out about.

[Dick Allen]

Its funny that people want the Sox to load up on prospects, but don't want to let them get more than 15 minutes before they are busts.

Well in 2 threads we basically have it all. If you haven't put up HOF numbers your first season, you will never amount to anything, and if you have put up good numbers your first full season, just remember Mark Fidrych.

 

There is no doubt in my mind if Viciedo and De Aza had the exact same performance with another team, they would be far more highly regarded around here.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Dick Allen

[Marty34]

Viciedo at 21 - .840 OPS, 106 PAs, MLB; .801 OPS, 363 PAs, minors

Viciedo at 22 - .641 OPS, 113 PAs, MLB; .856 OPS, 505 PAs, minors

Viciedo at 23 - .744 OPS, 543 PAs, MLB

 

Beltre at 21 - . 835 OPS, 575 PAs, MLB; 1.489 OPS, 19 PAs, minors

Beltre at 22 - .720 OPS, 515 PAs, MLB

Beltre at 23 - .729 OPS, 635 PAs, MLB

 

Also at 23 -

 

Viciedo vs LHP - 1.033, 133 PAs

Viciedo vs RHP - .650 OPS, 410 PAs

Beltre vs LHP - .749 OPS, 112 PAs

Beltre vs RHP - .713 OPS, 403 PAs

 

They've also had similar K and BB numbers too.

 

Just saying, it's not worth freaking out about.

 

If Viciedo were a third baseman he would be afforded more patience.

[southsider2k5]

If Viciedo were a third baseman he would be afforded more patience.

 

More patience than one full season at the big league level and 23 years old.

[Marty34]

More patience than one full season at the big league level and 23 years old.

 

Yes.

[Chisoxfn]

you didnt get banned.

But Joe...the owner just axed you. Get the heck out. You were being a troll. You were given 2nd chances. You continue to whine and bicker. Its time for you to take an extended break. This site wasn't built so people could whine and call each other names.

[Eminor3rd]

Viciedo was not a good player last year, offensively or defensively. However, the reason he's a a bad player offensively is because he has worse plate discipline than the average high school player. His hit tool and power tools are star-level. Some guys bust because they don't have the ability to recognize pitches, but more often they find that plate discipline is the easiest thing to learn because it is about approach and not innate ability. This skill, which comes with maturity, is the only thing separating Viciedo from being prime Carlos Lee, and so his upside is tremendous. It's also just so awesome that he's able to cut his teeth like this at the major league level. There are tons of big time prospects fighting this same battle in AA and putting up similar numbers. The fact that Viciedo can be above replacement level at the major league level with the hitting approach of a tee-ball player is extremely encouraging. We just have to hope that his eye isn't the problem and that he isn't uncoachable.

 

He's either going to become Carlos Lee or Delmon Young, and I think, at this point, he's more likely to be Lee. That's why I like Viciedo: not because he's good right now -- he isn't -- but because he has developed according to plan and is just an epiphany away from being a monster. He's a good guy to be patient with, in my opinion.

[Marty34]

Question is, how long do you wait for Viciedo to become Carlos Lee? One of the reasons the Sox lost the division was because they kept playing him against right-handers the second half. I think it makes sense to move him to the most difficult defensive position he has the best chance at handling long-term since we're going to have to wait on his bat.

[hogan873]

Question is, how long do you wait for Viciedo to become Carlos Lee? One of the reasons the Sox lost the division was because they kept playing him against right-handers the second half. I think it makes sense to move him to the most difficult defensive position he has the best chance at handling long-term since we're going to have to wait on his bat.

The problem there is that he's a worse third baseman than outfielder. He did okay in the OF last year, and I don't think anyone's going to argue that he can't hit right-handed pitching well at all. However, his troubles against RH pitching was not one of the main reasons the Sox lost the division. The overall collapse of the offense was probably the biggest factor, followed by pitching. It you wanted to break it down to individual performances, Viciedo was pretty low on the list.

 

That being said, we've got to see an improvement in his ability to hit RH pitching, and he's got to develop some more patience. Moving him to 3rd base isn't going to improve his bat.

[Marty34]

The problem there is that he's a worse third baseman than outfielder. He did okay in the OF last year, and I don't think anyone's going to argue that he can't hit right-handed pitching well at all. However, his troubles against RH pitching was not one of the main reasons the Sox lost the division. The overall collapse of the offense was probably the biggest factor, followed by pitching. It you wanted to break it down to individual performances, Viciedo was pretty low on the list.

 

That being said, we've got to see an improvement in his ability to hit RH pitching, and he's got to develop some more patience. Moving him to 3rd base isn't going to improve his bat.

 

Playing Viciedo against right-handers the second-half of the season was the biggest problem (and easiest to correct) with the offense last year. I don't think it's a good idea to put a 24 y.o. who has not proven he can hit in LF. He should be put in RF until it becomes clear that he can't handle the position defensively and his bat develops in order to get max value out of him.

[Dick Allen]

Playing Viciedo against right-handers the second-half of the season was the biggest problem (and easiest to correct) with the offense last year. I don't think it's a good idea to put a 24 y.o. who has not proven he can hit in LF. He should be put in RF until it becomes clear that he can't handle the position defensively and his bat develops in order to get max value out of him.

What about playing some other guys who weren't hitting when the team collapsed in September? The only way Viciedo is going to start hitting RHP is to play against RHP. He was bad, but he did hit 16 homers with his .221 average. Since he hardly walks, if he hits .221 is OBP isn't going to be very good. I don't understand why Viciedo needs to be platooned if he's a LF but it is OK to develop him offensively if he's in RF. The Sox got some production in RF in 2012, and as much as you think Viciedo is trash, he did OK defensively and hit 25 homers.

[Marty34]

What about playing some other guys who weren't hitting when the team collapsed in September? The only way Viciedo is going to start hitting RHP is to play against RHP. He was bad, but he did hit 16 homers with his .221 average. Since he hardly walks, if he hits .221 is OBP isn't going to be very good. I don't understand why Viciedo needs to be platooned if he's a LF but it is OK to develop him offensively if he's in RF. The Sox got some production in RF in 2012, and as much as you think Viciedo is trash, he did OK defensively and hit 25 homers.

 

Are the Sox contenders or rebuilders? If they are contenders I want the plan to be Viciedo sitting against RH'ers next year. If they are rebuilding move him to RF and see if he can handle it while you wait for his bat.

[Dick Allen]

Are the Sox contenders or rebuilders? If they are contenders I want the plan to be Viciedo sitting against RH'ers next year. If they are rebuilding move him to RF and see if he can handle it while you wait for his bat.

Developing players means you have to play them and take the pain that learning curves bring. It is what makes them better. Robin Ventura sucked offensively his first year. Viciedo had a better overall offensive season than Magglio Ordonez had his first full year. Just remember, you are one guy that wants the Sox to totally rebuild, yet you can't take any growing pains without constantly complaining about it.

[ScottyDo]

Developing players means you have to play them and take the pain that learning curves bring. It is what makes them better. Robin Ventura sucked offensively his first year. Viciedo had a better overall offensive season than Magglio Ordonez had his first full year. Just remember, you are one guy that wants the Sox to totally rebuild, yet you can't take any growing pains without constantly complaining about it.

I agree with this. Contention doesn't mean abandoning player development.

[Marty34]

Developing players means you have to play them and take the pain that learning curves bring. It is what makes them better. Robin Ventura sucked offensively his first year. Viciedo had a better overall offensive season than Magglio Ordonez had his first full year. Just remember, you are one guy that wants the Sox to totally rebuild, yet you can't take any growing pains without constantly complaining about it.

 

You often turn it to be about the messenger as if you're above the fray. Anyway, the Sox don't have the talent level to contend and rebuild at the same time. Missing the playoffs again because of Viciedo not being able to produce against right-handers isn't worth the time spent to develop him.

[southsider2k5]

You often turn it to be about the messenger as if you're above the fray. Anyway, the Sox don't have the talent level to contend and rebuild at the same time. Missing the playoffs again because of Viciedo not being able to produce against right-handers isn't worth the time spent to develop him.

 

They also don't have the payroll to have certain things at each position on the field.

[Jake]

You often turn it to be about the messenger as if you're above the fray. Anyway, the Sox don't have the talent level to contend and rebuild at the same time. Missing the playoffs again because of Viciedo not being able to produce against right-handers isn't worth the time spent to develop him.

 

lol!

 

You've gotta be kidding me.