August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 10:03 AM) A lot of speculation that the Dodgers might really emerge as the favorites to sign Cano, too. Then the Yankees will go all in on Abreu and Ellsbury for the same $$.
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 01:14 AM) Cespedes has been nothing special, ala Tank. This guy should not get more than Cespedes got. I know he will cause everybody loves the unknown, but he shouldn't. He put up better numbers than Cespedes in Cuba, there's no reason he shouldn't get more than Cespedes got. 09-10 Cespedes- .345/.426/.617 Abreu- .399/.555/.822 10-11 Cespedes- .333/.424/.667 Abreu- .453/.597/.986 Edited August 13, 201312 yr by scs787
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (scs787 @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 11:15 AM) He put up better numbers than Cespedes in Cuba, there's no reason he shouldn't get more than Cespedes got. Everyone's saying Trout has a huge advantage over Puig because he's a natural CFer....well, Cespedes in CF and LF giving you production (and this year has been a down one compared to expectations, just like with Viciedo) is a lot more important than a 1B with only two tools. I don't see the argument that he's worth 50-75-100% more than Cespedes, honestly. Edited August 13, 201312 yr by caulfield12
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 12:22 PM) Everyone's saying Trout has a huge advantage over Puig because he's a natural CFer....well, Cespedes in CF and LF giving you production (and this year has been a down one compared to expectations, just like with Viciedo) is a lot more important than a 1B with only two tools. I don't see the argument that he's worth 50-75-100% more than Cespedes, honestly. The top 10 highest salaries in the MLB features 3 first basemen and 1 OFer (Vernon Wells of all people)...Why are we acting like OFers make more money than first basemen?
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 01:15 PM) Then the Yankees will go all in on Abreu and Ellsbury for the same $$. Which one of them will play 2b?
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (scs787 @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 10:37 AM) The top 10 highest salaries in the MLB features 3 first basemen and 1 OFer (Vernon Wells of all people)...Why are we acting like OFers make more money than first basemen? A lot of those were handed out before clubs really started valuing defense correctly though...
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 01:17 PM) A lot of those were handed out before clubs really started valuing defense correctly though... 2 of the 3, Prince and Adrian Gonzalez, were given those top 10 contracts last year. The 1 OFer, Vernon Wells, was given his contract 5 years ago, a year before the other 1B on the list, Teixera, was given his. Edited August 13, 201312 yr by scs787
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 12:22 PM) Everyone's saying Trout has a huge advantage over Puig because he's a natural CFer....well, Cespedes in CF and LF giving you production (and this year has been a down one compared to expectations, just like with Viciedo) is a lot more important than a 1B with only two tools. I don't see the argument that he's worth 50-75-100% more than Cespedes, honestly. You simply can't compare Cespedes to Abreu. When Cesepedes was a FA, you could spend an unlimited amount on amateur players with no ramifications. You simply cannot do that anymore, so the market and money will be skewed towards international unrestricted free agents. Under the old rules, Abreu would probably get closer to the $42 mill or so Puig got. Now he's probably going to get $50-60 mill.
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 12:51 PM) Which one of them will play 2b? Teixeira
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (Jake @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 08:30 AM) Cespedes can get you wins on the basepaths and on defense, something this guy won't do. He has one tool - his bat - and it has to pan out or he's completely useless. Cespedes can have a down year at the plate (96 wRC+ this year) but still become a 2 WAR player (1.6 WAR so far, on track for 2.3/2.4 per Steamer/ZiPs) Well he has 2 + tools. Hit and Power.
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 12:22 PM) Everyone's saying Trout has a huge advantage over Puig because he's a natural CFer....well, Cespedes in CF and LF giving you production (and this year has been a down one compared to expectations, just like with Viciedo) is a lot more important than a 1B with only two tools. I don't see the argument that he's worth 50-75-100% more than Cespedes, honestly. It won't matter -- the only reason Cespedes and Puig made as little as they did was because there were legitimate concerns over how quickly they could be effective in the major leagues. Consensus at one point was that Cespedes would need up to a year in AA/AAA. Puig was considered a prospect, not a major leaguer. The fact that these guys have been able to contribute immediately makes Abreu -- the best bat of the three, if not the best overall player -- look like a MUCH safer bet than either of the other two were at the time. Teams will be bidding on Abreu as a potential impact free agent, not as a raw talent in need of player development.
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 01:44 PM) You simply can't compare Cespedes to Abreu. When Cesepedes was a FA, you could spend an unlimited amount on amateur players with no ramifications. You simply cannot do that anymore, so the market and money will be skewed towards international unrestricted free agents. Under the old rules, Abreu would probably get closer to the $42 mill or so Puig got. Now he's probably going to get $50-60 mill. This is an important point, too.
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 12:51 PM) Which one of them will play 2b? Brent Lillibridge
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 07:56 AM) And yet you still don't seem to understand the point. I just don't know what more to say. As Jake has mentioned, the market is finite and it is actually growing more illiquid as the years go on, and yet people want to dump productive players for nothing all for the opportunity to jump into this increasingly illiquid marketplace. I guess the Sox didn't get it either since they traded him away. They rather save the money and upgrade the minors and hope L. Garcia can develop in an area of need by the time Alexei's numbers go down furthur. That's all there is to get. Spending an extra $20M isn't money well spent on a rebuilding team, it's that simple. So I guess we both don't understand the others point. That extra $20M might come in handy for Abreu or others like him who pop up.
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 01:54 PM) I guess the Sox didn't get it either since they traded him away. They rather save the money and upgrade the minors and hope L. Garcia can develop in an area of need by the time Alexei's numbers go down furthur. That's all there is to get. Spending an extra $20M isn't money well spent on a rebuilding team, it's that simple. So I guess we both don't understand the others point. That extra $20M might come in handy for Abreu or others like him who pop up. I think that if they hadn't already cleared so much salary, it might be mroe valuable to get Dunn's off the books. However, since they are already way down -- the could afford giving $20m a year to a guy like Abreu if they wanted, not saying they should -- they might as well hold Dunn and wait for an opportunity to move him at higher value.
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 11:57 AM) I think that if they hadn't already cleared so much salary, it might be mroe valuable to get Dunn's off the books. However, since they are already way down -- the could afford giving $20m a year to a guy like Abreu if they wanted, not saying they should -- they might as well hold Dunn and wait for an opportunity to move him at higher value. I agree with holding onto Dunn. He leads the team in HR , RBI, Walks, Slg. OPS and 2nd to Beckham (37 less games)in OBP. Not sure Gordon's OBP would hold up over the same amount of games. Dunn's power plays and is worth more and if the Sox eat enough salary I'm sure they can get a better prospect than L.Garcia. Basically he's the Sox best hitter and best guy at getting on base. His numbers aren't replaceable by anyone the Sox could get for cheaper unless you count Abreu . I wonder if Dunn finally found his eye because he was playing mostly 1st base and not DHing much like Rios did when becoming a fixture in RF instead of CF. I'd like to see Dunn play DH for the rest of the year and see if he can maintain his turnabout. Edited August 13, 201312 yr by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
August 13, 201312 yr Soler's name hasn't been mentioned recently in this discussion... How much better is this guy compared to him? 1) Soler was viewed as at least 2 but possibly 3 years away (versus those who felt Viciedo and Cespedes were within a year of the majors at the time/s they signed) 2) Soler was viewed as having HUGE power...40+ homers, etc. 3) Soler was never perceived as anything but a corner OFer/DH (possibly 1B, but not with Rizzo entrenched there) Which scout gave him (this new guy) that 70 hit rating (now or projected)...? What was Viciedo's hit tool at the time of his signing...it should have been at least 60, because the ONLY reason he was signed was for 1) hitting/power, 2) the thought he was the probable 3B of the future and had a very strong/plus infielder's throwing arm. Does this guy take a ton of walks, compared to the other Cubans (Viciedo, Cespedes, Soler, Leonys Martin, etc.)??? Edited August 13, 201312 yr by caulfield12
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 02:54 PM) Soler's name hasn't been mentioned recently in this discussion... How much better is this guy compared to him? 1) Soler was viewed as at least 2 but possibly 3 years away (versus those who felt Viciedo and Cespedes were within a year of the majors at the time/s they signed) 2) Soler was viewed as having HUGE power...40+ homers, etc. 3) Soler was never perceived as anything but a corner OFer/DH (possibly 1B, but not with Rizzo entrenched there) I think it's hard to compare them -- Soler is 21
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 12:54 PM) Soler's name hasn't been mentioned recently in this discussion... How much better is this guy compared to him? 1) Soler was viewed as at least 2 but possibly 3 years away (versus those who felt Viciedo and Cespedes were within a year of the majors at the time/s they signed) 2) Soler was viewed as having HUGE power...40+ homers, etc. 3) Soler was never perceived as anything but a corner OFer/DH (possibly 1B, but not with Rizzo entrenched there) Which scout gave him (this new guy) that 70 hit rating (now or projected)...? What was Viciedo's hit tool at the time of his signing...it should have been at least 60, because the ONLY reason he was signed was for 1) hitting/power, 2) the thought he was the probable 3B of the future and had a very strong/plus infielder's throwing arm. Does this guy take a ton of walks, compared to the other Cubans (Viciedo, Cespedes, Soler, Leonys Martin, etc.)??? It's hard to say about his walks because he's one of the best hitters in Cuba means a lot IBB and HBP.He always walked more than he struck out but I doubt that would translate to the Major League since very few if any power hitters walk more than they K.His Wiki page gives more info on how he has done in international tournaments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Dariel_Abreu. Here's another link for a Baseball America podcast ,with Ben Badler, from yesterday where the 1st 1/2 mostly talked about Abreu. They speculated on which teams would be most likely to sign him. They only mentioned high profile teams listing the Rangers, Red Sox, Pirates, and Nationals whose situations may lend themselves to signing him. http://www.baseballamerica.com/internation...eucuba-edition/ Also mentioned it's very good timing to be entering the 1st base market with not a lot of great prospects in the minors or free agency. Mentioned also things that scouts see as negatives like any other player who comes from Cuban Leagues. Things such as the level of play being equal to High A or AA which translates not being used to higher velocity pitches and sharper breaking pitches and the longer ML schedule and overall fitness level and the ability to stay fit once you get a big contract in the land of plenty. Also not a pure bat speed guy like Puig. Edited August 14, 201312 yr by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
August 13, 201312 yr http://www.triplethreatinc.com/pc_bat_speed.htm I THINK I FOUND JEFF MANTO'S NEXT ASSISTANT HITTING COACH. (He can work with Viciedo, Gordon, Flowers/Phegley, Gillaspie, Keppinger, Garcia, etc.) INVEST THE SAVINGS, JR, INVEST THE SAVINGS (in the right places)!!!! Edited August 13, 201312 yr by caulfield12
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 03:22 PM) It's hard to say about his walks because he's one of the best hitters in Cuba means a lot IBB and HBP.He always walked more than he struck out but I doubt that would translate to the Major League since very few if any power hitters walk more than they K.His Wiki page gives more info on how he has done in international tournaments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Dariel_Abreu. Here's another link for a Baseball America podcast ,with Ben Badler, from yesterday where the 1st 1/2 mostly talked about Abreu. They speculated on which teams would be most likely to sign him. They only mentioned high profile teams listing the Rangers, Red Sox, Pirates, and Nationals whose situations may lend themselves to signing him. Also mentioned it's very good timing to be entering the 1st base market with not a lot of great prospects in the minors or free agency. Mentioned also things that scouts see as negatives like any other player who comes from Cubam Leagues. Things such as the level of play being equal to High A or AA which translates not being used to higher velocity pitches and sharper breaking pitches and the longer ML schedule and overall fitness level and the ability to stay fit once you get a big contract in the land of plenty. Also not a pure bat speed guy like Puig. Can't believe there's a sentence with Nationals and Pirates together with Rangers/Red Sox and the phrase "high profile." Baseball has really undergone a seachange in the last 2-3 seasons. Edited August 13, 201312 yr by caulfield12
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 02:35 PM) Can't believe there's a sentence with Nationals and Pirates together with Rangers/Red Sox and the phrase "high profile." Baseball has really undergone a seachange in the last 2-3 seasons. The "high prfile" phrase was mine given the fact 3 of the 4 are playoff caliber teams and the National get a lot of pub based on being in D.C. and Strasburg/Harper. Those are the only teams they mentioned though I don't think they did a big analysis of all teams.
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 05:47 PM) The "high prfile" phrase was mine given the fact 3 of the 4 are playoff caliber teams and the National get a lot of pub based on being in D.C. and Strasburg/Harper. Those are the only teams they mentioned though I don't think they did a big analysis of all teams. I know it won't matter in the end, but hey, why not be an under-the-radar bidding team for him with tons of money to spend? Can't hurt, would rather be that than "Team everyone knows is desperate to sign this guy".
August 13, 201312 yr QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 13, 2013 -> 03:49 PM) I know it won't matter in the end, but hey, why not be an under-the-radar bidding team for him with tons of money to spend? Can't hurt, would rather be that than "Team everyone knows is desperate to sign this guy". See A's/Beane/Cespedes. Everyone knew that Soler was going to the Cubs, Puig to the Dodgers, pretty much. And there was a very strong inkling through Jaime Torres about the Sox and Viciedo, for another example. Since there's no catch-all (ahem)... http://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/nati...nzalez-dispute/ Interesting situation with insurance/lawsuits/kickbacks. Wonder if the White Sox have ever sued to get back any of the $402,000 that went to Dave Wilder and the additional money to the other two scouts involved in the Dominican? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/05/us/05cncwarren.html?_r=0 Didn't realize ALL this happened to JR... A Chicago lawyer, who was a Northwestern Law School classmate of Mr. Reinsdorf, went to prison for stealing millions of dollars from escrow accounts of one of his companies. Years later, Mr. Reinsdorf’s longtime trusted bookkeeper went to jail for taking nearly $1 million from another of his firms. “It all taught me a lesson,” Mr. Reinsdorf said. “If somebody wants to steal from you, they will.” Yet, despite all that, the most loyal owner in all of baseball with his ex-players/scouts/front office personnel. Edited August 13, 201312 yr by caulfield12
August 14, 201312 yr QUOTE (oldsox @ Aug 12, 2013 -> 06:25 AM) It still blows my mind that MLB allows these guys to be free agents with this kind of bidding war. If they don't, they might not defect.
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