Chicago White Sox Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 05:05 PM) Yep, it's actually shocking how patient the Cubs front office has been. Everyone assumed they'd be in the hunt for David Price and Ellsbury, but it seems like they're holding out another year. Hopefully they don't get Tanaka. What do they have to build around right now? They have very few long-term pieces on their major league roster. It's going to be a while before they can put together a competitive core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 05:10 PM) It would be stunning if the Sox outbid the Dodgers, Yankees, Angels, Cubs, etc. for Tanaka. This is a much different situation than with Abreu, where a lot, if not all, of the big market teams didn't need a 1B. No doubt, but there's no reason the Sox shouldn't be in the $160M range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 05:10 PM) It would be stunning if the Sox outbid the Dodgers, Yankees, Angels, Cubs, etc. for Tanaka. This is a much different situation than with Abreu, where a lot, if not all, of the big market teams didn't need a 1B. If Hahn did that, then it'd be amazing.I can't see the Dodgers or Angels in it, both those teams have so much money tied up. Yankees and Cubs I can see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (BaseballNick @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 04:58 PM) What is it the Sox have done that the Cubs haven't? I think Rick is doing a fine job and all, but I'm not sure what the Cubs have to do with anything. They're going about their rebuild differently, and in my opinion, it's going pretty well. The great theo gave the YANKEES $18 million For soriano's 2014 season for a fourth round pitcher. I repeat: the FREAKING YANKEES got salary relief. Even though they were) and still are) desperate for offense. Not. A. Good. Rebuild. At. All. Rick ate $1 million for a Garcia in the rios deal. HUGE difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (BaseballNick @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 05:58 PM) What is it the Sox have done that the Cubs haven't? I think Rick is doing a fine job and all, but I'm not sure what the Cubs have to do with anything. They're going about their rebuild differently, and in my opinion, it's going pretty well. Yeah, I envy the Cubs system, although some of it was happening prior to Hoyer coming in. So far I've loved the moves that Hoyer has done bringing in veterans on short deals and then dishing them off for a couple prospects here and there. It's an excellent plan for a rebuilding team that has some salary space to do that. It's essentially buying prospects, which is quicker than waiting for the draft every year and hoping you draft properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 08:58 PM) Yeah, I envy the Cubs system, although some of it was happening prior to Hoyer coming in. So far I've loved the moves that Hoyer has done bringing in veterans on short deals and then dishing them off for a couple prospects here and there. It's an excellent plan for a rebuilding team that has some salary space to do that. It's essentially buying prospects, which is quicker than waiting for the draft every year and hoping you draft properly. Then they did the exact opposite of this when they signed Edwin Jackson to a big contract when he might have been a useful back of the rotation starter on a playoff team and completely useless to a rebuilding franchise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 01:12 PM) Last year's team was significantly better on paper coming into the season than this year's team will be (barring a few starting-caliber acquisitions). Yeah, with Rios and Peavy alone...you'd probably say the OD 2013 team had the advantage....not knowing what we'll get from Abreu and Garcia over a full season, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 08:34 PM) Then they did the exact opposite of this when they signed Edwin Jackson to a big contract when he might have been a useful back of the rotation starter on a playoff team and completely useless to a rebuilding franchise. Yeah and didnt they basically admit that was a mistake the other day? Cubs system isnt devoid of hitters...but pitching is going to be a problem Edited December 13, 2013 by Baron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (Baron @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 09:42 PM) Yeah and didnt they basically admit that was a mistake the other day? Cubs system isnt devoid of hitters...but pitching is going to be a problem I can't believe there's no talk of them going all in trying to trade for Price in a deal centered around one of these high-talent, 2-3 year a way youngsters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaseballNick Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 07:29 PM) The great theo gave the YANKEES $18 million For soriano's 2014 season for a fourth round pitcher. I repeat: the FREAKING YANKEES got salary relief. Even though they were) and still are) desperate for offense. Not. A. Good. Rebuild. At. All. Rick ate $1 million for a Garcia in the rios deal. HUGE difference. You choose the one guy they essentially had to get rid of who was signed LONG before the current regime took over, and call their rebuild bad because of that? The Cubs can eat far more money in bad contracts than the Sox can, and it's a completely different situation and is being handled as such. I'm far more concerned about what the Twins and Tigers are doing, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (BaseballNick @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 10:04 PM) You choose the one guy they essentially had to get rid of who was signed LONG before the current regime took over, and call their rebuild bad because of that? The Cubs can eat far more money in bad contracts than the Sox can, and it's a completely different situation and is being handled as such. I'm far more concerned about what the Twins and Tigers are doing, anyway. If the Cubs were in year 1 of a rebuilding process you could say that and have it make sense. They've been under .500 for 4 straight seasons and it's difficult to see them winning 70 games next year. That's why their rebuild looks bad. If the Cubs can eat far more money in bad contracts then it's crazy for them to lose for that long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 09:09 PM) If the Cubs can eat far more money in bad contracts then it's crazy for them to lose for that long. This is true, but if the rebuilding leads to sustained success it won't matter. A problem with their rebuild is Baez can't stick at short and I don't think Bryant will stick at third. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 10:47 PM) This is true, but if the rebuilding leads to sustained success it won't matter. A problem with their rebuild is Baez can't stick at short and I don't think Bryant will stick at third. They've finished 5th in their division 4 years in a row. If a team does that and there's any question as to whether or not it will lead to sustained success then the method clearly is incredibly flawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Speaking of the Cubs, there's a report on mlbtraderumors that they asked for Stroman, Sanchez and another player for Samardzija. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaseballNick Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 09:09 PM) If the Cubs were in year 1 of a rebuilding process you could say that and have it make sense. They've been under .500 for 4 straight seasons and it's difficult to see them winning 70 games next year. That's why their rebuild looks bad. If the Cubs can eat far more money in bad contracts then it's crazy for them to lose for that long. If the goal is to build a .500 team as quickly as possible, then yes, they're failing miserably. Obviously they're being patient (aside from whatever that Edwin Jackson signing was) and waiting to see what they have in Baez, Almora, Bryant, Soler, Lake, Alcantera, Edwards, et al. I understand what they're trying to do, if others don't, so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (BaseballNick @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 10:57 PM) If the goal is to build a .500 team as quickly as possible, then yes, they're failing miserably. Obviously they're being patient (aside from whatever that Edwin Jackson signing was) and waiting to see what they have in Baez, Almora, Bryant, Soler, Lake, Alcantera, Edwards, et al. I understand what they're trying to do, if others don't, so be it. If their goal was to build a winning team at all, they're failing miserably. Unless somehow their team takes a big step up this year, they will have spent half a decade in the cellar of their division. Half a decade. That kind of streak is emblematic of the 1970's and 1980's white sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 09:53 PM) They've finished 5th in their division 4 years in a row. If a team does that and there's any question as to whether or not it will lead to sustained success then the method clearly is incredibly flawed. It's putting all your eggs in one basket for sure, but if these position players live up to their expectations they'll have sustained success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 11:01 PM) It's putting all your eggs in one basket for sure, but if these position players live up to their expectations they'll have sustained success. I can say the same thing about the White Sox right now and their system is generally acknowledged to be terrible. If all the talented guys the White Sox have live up to expectations we can win right now. In baseball, saying "if everything happens as it should" is a guarantee of failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 10:05 PM) I can say the same thing about the White Sox right now and their system is generally acknowledged to be terrible. If all the talented guys the White Sox have live up to expectations we can win right now. In baseball, saying "if everything happens as it should" is a guarantee of failure. The nice thing about saying that about the Sox is that it applies to MLB players. For the Cubs, it's all "if all these guys who are multiple years away from the MLB make it that far healthy and play their best, the Cubs will be good (except not have any pitching)." For us, it's "if the players on our MLB team meet their potential, we'll win this year and indefinitely into the future. Edited December 13, 2013 by Jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 10:01 PM) It's putting all your eggs in one basket for sure, but if these position players live up to their expectations they'll have sustained success. Not without some pitching it won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 05:10 PM) It would be stunning if the Sox outbid the Dodgers, Yankees, Angels, Cubs, etc. for Tanaka. This is a much different situation than with Abreu, where a lot, if not all, of the big market teams didn't need a 1B. The White Sox are usually smart enough to avoid huge deals like that. Other than Darvish (so far), most of those Japanese pitchers have been disappointments. Iwakuma was good with the Mariners last year, but he wasn't as high profile as guys like Dice K, Kei Igawa or Irabu. Kuroda's also been pretty decent. Wei Yin Chin was solid for the Orioles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (Jake @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 10:10 PM) The nice thing about saying that about the Sox is that it applies to MLB players. For the Cubs, it's all "if all these guys who are multiple years away from the MLB make it that far healthy and play their best, the Cubs will be good (except not have any pitching)." For us, it's "if the players on our MLB team meet their potential, we'll win this year and indefinitely into the future. Except you could have said the same thing in 2001 or 2006. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 07:56 PM) Speaking of the Cubs, there's a report on mlbtraderumors that they asked for Stroman, Sanchez and another player for Samardzija. They have no intention of trading him then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 06:58 PM) Yeah, I envy the Cubs system, although some of it was happening prior to Hoyer coming in. So far I've loved the moves that Hoyer has done bringing in veterans on short deals and then dishing them off for a couple prospects here and there. It's an excellent plan for a rebuilding team that has some salary space to do that. It's essentially buying prospects, which is quicker than waiting for the draft every year and hoping you draft properly. It's hit and miss. They just paid Scott Baker $5.5M for nothin'. That counts too. They spent ~$3M on Maholm and turned that into Arodys Vizcaino, who hasn't seen a mound in forever. They gambled they could flip Carlos Villanueva, but he couldn't stick as a starter, and now they're stuck with a $10M bill for a 2 year middle-relief placeholder. They spent ~$3M on Feldman, turning him into Strop and Arietta, the big win in the Mighty Oz's brilliant flipping scheme. Edited December 13, 2013 by Stan Bahnsen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 12, 2013 -> 08:47 PM) This is true, but if the rebuilding leads to sustained success it won't matter. A problem with their rebuild is Baez can't stick at short and I don't think Bryant will stick at third. They also both have borderline K rates, not red flag K rates, but not too far away. They could both be great, but there are no guarantees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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