Tyler Flowers is your 2014 starting catcher

[2nd_city_saint787]

And why would we need to entirely depend on Beck/Bassitt/Rienzo/Danish when we're about to pick a polished collegiate pitcher at #3 who would you have at least a shot at pitching in the 2nd half of 2014?

 

That's one of the biggest arguments out there for not sinking money into Santana/Jimenez.

 

You mean 2015???

[Marty34]

I think they're about where I expected them to be. I expected an improvement at the catchers position but past that everything I wanted them to do they did. I thought a table setter and a middle of the line up bat would be the 2 most important acquisitions of the off season and they got that.

 

I've been somewhat of a Dunn supporter for the last 2 years, I think his bat has it's place in the lineup. We saw 2 years ago that the Sox can indeed compete with him in the lineup. Injuries bit both he and PK down the stretch and it really killed them. If 1 or both stayed healthy they more than likely make the playoffs.....The closer we get to the trade deadline the more value he gets. A few years ago Mark Reynolds got the DBacks a guy who has saved a few games for em.

 

They won't fix all of the rotation internally, but I don't see them signing mid tier guys for big money who might end up being on par with what they already have internally. Much like this season when they went after Tanaka I can certainly see them going after a top guy next year.

 

Only way I see them trading Sale is if Garcia/Eaton/Abreu/Davidson all prove to be busts which would make them much further away than I thought.

 

If you would have told me we'd still have the holes we have and an $85m payroll at the beginning of the offseason I would have been surprised. This can't be a rebuild that sets up a 5 or 6 year run built from the minors if they keep Sale. We're not even at year 1 of the rebuild and we have few tradeable assets left. If they signed a mid-tier starter that would at least give them the flexibility to deal a Quintana or Johnson.

[caulfield12]

Very simple. 2015 Opening Day.

 

Sale

Quintana

Rodon/Beede/Hoffman/Nola/Weaver/Finnegan

Danks

Johnson or Beck/Bassitt

Paulino/Rienzo (trade bait)

 

1B Abreu

2B Semien or Micah Johnson

SS Ramirez/Semien

3B Davidson

 

We're either going to have to trade Ramirez this year or quite possibly hold onto him because of the difficulties of producing or acquiring another major league quality SS if we're legitimately in a position to compete in 2015. It would be extremely challenging to compete with 1st/2nd year infielders at 2B/SS/3B, unless they all get extensive experience this season.

 

Then you have Viciedo, Eaton and Garcia in the outfield.

 

That leaves two big issues, DH and C. If you keep DeAza around (in 2014), then you can split DH amongst the four outfielders with occasional opportunities for someone like Keppinger (assuming they won't just dump him), L.Garcia/Semien/Johnson/Sanchez, and/or by resting one of the regular infielders. Basically, you'd have a rotating DH.

 

Every trade chip left over goes into either acquiring a C or the right DH (probably a LH) candidate...and/or buying one off-season.

 

 

Or they're simply going to have to trade someone in the bullpen, either Jones, Belisario, Lindstrom, Cleto and one of our 2 lefties.

 

In a perfect world, John Danks would rebound and you could get his contract off the books without eating too much. Otherwise, you're stuck with him in the rotation.

 

 

That would leave for April 2015:

 

Sale

Quintana

College Pitcher from 2014 Draft

Johnson

Beck/Bassit

 

 

In essence, this team is built to be really competitive in 2016-17-18, and definitely COULD compete in 2015 with the right C and DH combination, assuming no major injuries. You're probably going to go through one more year of growing pains with all those young pitchers.

 

This is where adding a Santana/Jimenez/Garza type for the 3/4 spot in the rotation would actually make some sense, for 2015...especially if Johnson and Beck both struggle and our collegiate pitcher isn't quite ready to be Chris Sale Version 2.0.

 

Of course, there's always the possibility of holding onto Paulino as well for one more season, but the key for the moment is flexibility and constantly reassessing needs and wants over the next 12 months. There's also the possibility they hold onto Danks as well, because he's pitching so well again they want to keep him around and make a legit run at the 2015 ALCD. It all depends on how all the young pitchers perform. Ideally, they'd succeed and you could plug the savings into tinkering with the offense to get it up to league average.

Edited March 24, 2014 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

The point is whether it's a $68M bust or a $130M bust, it's the same thing: a talent evaluation problem.

 

It isn't the same thing at all. Just by simple finance a $130 million bust hurts the deep much more deeply, and probably longer, than a $68 million bust.

[southsider2k5]

Good one Roostifer. Now compare the NBA and MLB caps. Rushing to others defense as often as you do, you're well on your way to becoming a minion.

 

[adjuststinfoilhat]

[caulfield12]

 

 

It might not even be evaluation, so much as the coaching (hitting, especially) and not having a systemic or system-wide approach.

 

Of course, it's easier to argue on the evaluation side since very few Sox youngsters have left here and excelled elsewhere...you can also make an argument that most of our youngsters have been moved around a lot (Beckham, Viciedo, Semien seems to be the next), and, finally, the argument that veterans like Rios, AJ, Ramirez and DeAza aren't the best types of players to influence or serve as role models.

 

It goes back to that leadership issue, the laid back thing (Konerko, Dunn, Thome, Dye, etc.) That's what Eaton and Abreu and Garcia were brought in to establish, not only talent, but to follow in the example of Abreu's professionalism, work ethic and approach to each pitch and each at-bat.

 

Last year, a lot of hitters were just freelancing and doing whatever they felt like at the plate....DeAza, Ramirez, Viciedo, Beckham the 2nd half of the season, Rios, Dunn. There wasn't really anything resembling a team-wide approach. That situation can't be allowed to persist.

 

 

"That Rangers' system was incredible with all the young guys," said Olt, who has made a remarkable comeback from vision problems and is a contender for the Cubs' starting third base job. "It starts with the way I learned over there. It started when I was younger and they let us work with the big guys. I learned a lot from them. I think it has a lot to do with how they coach everything.

 

"The talent is incredible, so that helps. But then I come over here and I'm starting to get the same feeling."

 

Olt, 25, a supplemental first round pick of the Rangers in 2010 who was part of the Garza trade last July, relishes his first major league spring training in 2012 when the Rangers were coming off their second consecutive World Series appearance.

 

"I was extremely nervous just to talk to those guys," said Olt, referring to Adrian Beltre, Michael Young, Ian Kinzler and Mike Napoli. "They were superstars and I thought them listening to me ask questions was the last thing they wanted. (But) I learned a lot about approaches (at the plate) and fielding balls that takes time for people to figure out, and they were going to teach me at a young age.

 

"It was awesome."

 

Beltre, who reached the majors at 19 with the Dodgers, sensed immediately that Olt was a good listener.

 

"I like Mike Olt because he wanted to learn as much as he could," Beltre said. "He's a good kid. He can have a good career.

 

"Older players helped me when I was young. That's what you should do."

[2nd_city_saint787]

If you would have told me we'd still have the holes we have and an $85m payroll at the beginning of the offseason I would have been surprised. This can't be a rebuild that sets up a 5 or 6 year run built from the minors if they keep Sale. We're not even at year 1 of the rebuild and we have few tradeable assets left. If they signed a mid-tier starter that would at least give them the flexibility to deal a Quintana or Johnson.

 

The only hole I see is catcher. You CAN make the argument for Paulinos spot in the rotation, but the fact of the matter is we just don't know yet whether or not he is indeed a hole or not. I said it many a times Paulino had one real bad start the last 2 years he was healthy and sans that game he had a 3.40 era stretched across 157 innings. The guy has a ton of upside if he stays healthy.....With all the question marks, not holes, but question marks on the bats of the youngsters we have, I'd much rather take a cheap risk on him than take a risk on a guy who could end up being no better than the guys we have eternally

 

This is certainly a team that can start competing as early as next year with staying power. Semien and Micah Johnson look like they will be joining the core very soon. Those 2 along with Eaton/Garcia/Abreu/Davidson all look like they could be apart of a real good young core. If they keep Dayan around to DH him you have 7 of your 9 starters set for the foreseeable future.

 

They don't need tradable assets if all those guys play like we hope and the Sox are players in FA.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Tradable assets:

 

Ramirez

Danks (if he returns to form)

Paulino/Rienzo/Beck/Bassitt

Dunn

DeAza/Viciedo

Beckham

Gillaspie

Keppinger (unlikely to get anything for him before he proves he can bounce back and be productive)

basically our entire bullpen

whoever's left from the Semien/Micah Johnson/Leury Garcia/Sanchez logjam

essentially the majority of our minor leaguers who Hahn doesn't consider a future part of the core

 

Plus a TON of money to play with now in free agency for the RIGHT fit, such as Tanaka or McCann...

The advantage with lots of Cubans out there having Abreu/Viciedo/Ramirez/Nieto all on the same roster

Edited March 24, 2014 by caulfield12

[harfman77]

Which is why limiting the prospect options to Major League ready ones made me cringe. I disagree that we have players after this group that will be options. If these guys fail, Sale has to go on the market. Off season of 2015 will they be good enough to keep Sale?

 

They targeted ML talent in their deals, but have also made an effort to get a lot better in that amateur draft acquiring a lot of players with a lot of upside.

 

Acquisition Backfill

 

A. Garcia - C. Hawkins, M Adolfo

A. Eaton - J. May, A. Engle

M. Davidson - T. Michaeleski

L Garcia - Tim Anderson, C Rondon

J Abreu - K Barnum

 

Thats not including any of the pieces that were already in the system when Hahn took over. They are building the system at the top to fill all the gaps created by the strategy of the previous regime and at the same time building from the bottom up.

[Eminor3rd]

Good one Roostifer. Now compare the NBA and MLB caps. Rushing to others defense as often as you do, you're well on your way to becoming a minion.

 

Marty, can you do me a favor and just publicly acknowledge that you're aware that baseball teams are businesses?

 

You keep acting like you don't get it, which is frustrating, but then I realized you've never actually said that you DO get it.

[Jake]

I really hope everyone doesn't expect our #3 pick to be on the OD '15 roster.

 

Agreed. That would be a failure if he isn't helping us by September

[southsider2k5]

Agreed. That would be a failure if he isn't helping us by September

 

Don't give certain posters any funny ideas...

[royoung]

I really hope everyone doesn't expect our #3 pick to be on the OD '15 roster.

 

Even Rodon or Beede wouldn't contribute meaningfully until 2016 at the earliest. If we take Kolek or Aiken extend that to 2017 or 2018.

[ILMOU]

I really hope everyone doesn't expect our #3 pick to be on the OD '15 roster.

Nope, not everyone. 2016 if it's a college arm is the goal, possible Sept '15 cup-o-coffee.

[BlackSox13]

Anyone expecting the #3 pick to come up and contribute in 14 is setting their self up for a let down as well as something else to complain about. It can happen as Sale has proven but you can't EXPECT it. However long it takes is fine with me as long as the kid is ready when the time comes, no need to force the issue.

[witesoxfan]

I mean, look at Gray and Appel (big league stuff and polished Senior) and neither of them will be starting in the bigs.

 

I don't think you'd want to do that anyways unless you believed that their addition to the roster could be the ultimate difference between you making or missing the playoffs.

[Marty34]

It isn't the same thing at all. Just by simple finance a $130 million bust hurts the deep much more deeply, and probably longer, than a $68 million bust.

 

I guess you mean hurts the ability to compete more than a $68M bust? My answer to that is it depends on the owner. Sox ownership has cried poor for 30 years and blamed fans for not being "able to spend $1 because we only have $.50"

[Y2Jimmy0]

Chris Cotillo ‏@ChrisCotillo 2m

 

#WhiteSox have informed Adrian Nieto that he has made the Opening Day roster, according to his agent @JoshuaKusnick

[caulfield12]

I just said that to plant an idea, a possibility.

 

Sale's an exception, and of course, it was because the White Sox desperately needed relief help in 2010 to stay in the race...and Sale also was attracted by coming to a team where he could contribute right away, so it was a unique set of circumstances.

 

That said, the likes of McDowell and Alex Fernandez spent little to no time in the minors back in the day, it's not unheard of, David Price, etc. We are in a position where we could be drafting the first or second best collegiate pitcher in the country.

 

And I'm tired of hearing now we need MORE pitching.

 

Plus, we started Buehrle and Sale in the bullpen...we wouldn't want to use a college arm to start many games after his university workload, especially if it's elevated.

Edited March 24, 2014 by caulfield12

[bmags]

I hope he does well buy I am a little nervous about how many passed balls I saw from him this spring.

[caulfield12]

I guess you mean hurts the ability to compete more than a $68M bust? My answer to that is it depends on the owner. Sox ownership has cried poor for 30 years and blamed fans for not being "able to spend $1 because we only have $.50"

 

 

How recent was that?

 

Should we bring up the White Flag trade, Bill Veeck, Disco Demolition Night, urban legends of the dangerous/scary Southside and the 24 year gap from playoff appearances as well?

[kevo880]

And the sox officially have a back up catcher!

 

https://twitter.com/stoltz_baseball/status/...241316309516288

[southsider2k5]

How recent was that?

 

Should we bring up the White Flag trade, Bill Veeck, Disco Demolition Night, urban legends of the dangerous/scary Southside and the 24 year gap from playoff appearances as well?

 

His response is the exact reason that the White Sox organization could never do a Theo Epstein style rebuild. Sox fans never let go of stuff. Ever. Kenny Williams will be dead and buried, and that quote will still come up. The fans are the ones who determined how Rick Hahn rebuilt this team, right or wrong. If they had gone the Epstein way, we'd be looking at gates of 8000 people again.

 

The White Flag trade happened July 31, 1997. That is 17 damned years ago. There are Soxtalk posters who weren't even born when that happened. Yet anytime the deadline comes up, White Flag gets mentioned. And it has influence on how the organization does its business because they know their customer base is fickle and b****y.

 

[Marty34]

The only hole I see is catcher. You CAN make the argument for Paulinos spot in the rotation, but the fact of the matter is we just don't know yet whether or not he is indeed a hole or not. I said it many a times Paulino had one real bad start the last 2 years he was healthy and sans that game he had a 3.40 era stretched across 157 innings. The guy has a ton of upside if he stays healthy.....With all the question marks, not holes, but question marks on the bats of the youngsters we have, I'd much rather take a cheap risk on him than take a risk on a guy who could end up being no better than the guys we have eternally

 

This is certainly a team that can start competing as early as next year with staying power. Semien and Micah Johnson look like they will be joining the core very soon. Those 2 along with Eaton/Garcia/Abreu/Davidson all look like they could be apart of a real good young core. If they keep Dayan around to DH him you have 7 of your 9 starters set for the foreseeable future.

 

They don't need tradable assets if all those guys play like we hope and the Sox are players in FA.

 

It's unlikely that all of these prospects turn out well, that said aside from catcher and probably another LH hitter somewhere I'm willing to roll dice on the position players.

 

I think it's still debatable whether Quintana is a #2 or #3 on a playoff team with the contract he signed though it doesn't matter because if nothing else that boosted his trade value. If Quintana settles in as a #3, he may be able to be packaged with a Beck or Bassit for an established #2 with Johnson hopefully sliding in at #3.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Marty34

[Marty34]

His response is the exact reason that the White Sox organization could never do a Theo Epstein style rebuild. Sox fans never let go of stuff. Ever. Kenny Williams will be dead and buried, and that quote will still come up. The fans are the ones who determined how Rick Hahn rebuilt this team, right or wrong. If they had gone the Epstein way, we'd be looking at gates of 8000 people again.

 

The White Flag trade happened July 31, 1997. That is 17 damned years ago. There are Soxtalk posters who weren't even born when that happened. Yet anytime the deadline comes up, White Flag gets mentioned. And it has influence on how the organization does its business because they know their customer base is fickle and b****y.

 

Really, the Sox fan base should be grateful for the job the Reinsdorf ownership group has done.