Should #13 be put back in circulation?

[Balta1701]

Ozzie made several crucial calls during the playoffs which were arguably the most important calls of their respective games.

 

bringing in El Duque with the bases loaded and no outs....

deciding to bring Buehrle in as a closer for the first time ever....

 

I could go on.

 

His importance to that playoff run and outcome cannot be equated with 'any other member of that team'

 

that is utterly foolish logic.

Didn't Ozzie also bring Marte in and let him walk like 3 people to set up the El Duque situation?

 

[witesoxfan]

Ozzie made several crucial calls during the playoffs which were arguably the most important calls of their respective games.

 

bringing in El Duque with the bases loaded and no outs....

deciding to bring Buehrle in as a closer for the first time ever....

 

I could go on.

 

His importance to that playoff run and outcome cannot be equated with 'any other member of that team'

 

that is utterly foolish logic.

 

Please do go on then. You noted 2 calls in 2 games that ultimately may have altered the outcome of their respective series, but the Sox won 11 games and played 12. How about bringing Hermanson into game 3 when the Sox were up by 1 and he hadn't pitched in a live game in almost a month? Why not go to your young fireballing closer when there are only 4 more outs to go? Why was Marte brought into game 3 of the ALDS in the first place? The fact that seemingly every move he made that postseason worked perfectly seems to be more fluky than it does a reflection of good management.

 

I'm taking nothing away from him, because he won a World Series, but to say that he had more of an affect on it than the players seems silly. They're the ones who actually went out and won the games. I don't give any one person more or less credit for that team.

[LittleHurt05]

Didn't Ozzie also bring Marte in and let him walk like 3 people to set up the El Duque situation?

 

He also brought in an injured, rusty Hermanson to give up a tying double in the 8th which set up extra innings and the Buehrle save.

[Doc Edwards Shot]

I agree. I think there should be different clothing for coaches and the manager, even if they've done it for this long. You don't see football coaches dressing up in pads or NBA coaches dressing up in a jersey and shorts.

 

I do not believe this will ever change because people do not believe it to be an issue, but it's really weird when you get to thinking about it.

 

It's a historical thing from the early days of baseball when the manager was also a player.

 

It's not broken, so it shouldn't be fixed. It's one of many things that makes baseball special and sets it apart from other sports.

 

 

[BigEdWalsh]

I think you have to be very selective about what or who's numbers you retire. I think the Bulls have done this very well. They haven't retired Tom Boerwinkle's number. Or Norm Van Lier's. Just to name a couple. Those were guys who were long time Bulls and/or very special players and well-loved by the fans. I think Ozzie perhaps could get recognition like the Bulls did for Phil Jackson. His name and banner is up there with Jordan, Pippen, Sloan and Love just reading "Jackson - Coach".

I like the idea too of having a White Sox Hall of Fame and not even having numbers retired. Wouldn't it then be a special honor to have the number of a White Sox Hall of Famer? When did the practice of sports teams retiring numbers begin anyway? It's a nice recognition of course. But maybe it needs to stop. Former players, coaches and managers can be honored with statues and plaques.......good enough.

Edited December 30, 2014 by BigEdWalsh

[LDF]

I think you have to be very selective about what or who's numbers you retire. I think the Bulls have done this very well. They haven't retired Tom Boerwinkle's number. Or Norm Van Lier's. Just to name a couple. Those were guys who were long time Bulls and/or very special players and well-loved by the fans. I think Ozzie perhaps could get recognition like the Bulls did for Phil Jackson. His name and banner is up there with Jordan, Pippen, Sloan and Love just reading "Jackson - Coach".

I like the idea too of having a White Sox Hall of Fame and not even having numbers retired. Wouldn't it then be a special honor to have the number of a White Sox Hall of Famer? When did the practice of sports teams retiring numbers begin anyway? It's a nice recognition of course. But maybe it needs to stop. Former players, coaches and managers can be honored with statues and plaques.......good enough.

 

a great post.

[cabiness42]

I think a decision on retiring #13 is one that needs some more time for some context. If we get 10+ years down the road and the Sox haven't won another WS, or even reached one, I think that makes Ozzie more significant in a historical context.

 

Personally, I think the guy is a total asshole, but he took a team that was nowhere near the most talented in the league and won 99 games and then 11-1 in the postseason.

[LDF]

I think a decision on retiring #13 is one that needs some more time for some context. If we get 10+ years down the road and the Sox haven't won another WS, or even reached one, I think that makes Ozzie more significant in a historical context.

 

Personally, I think the guy is a total asshole, but he took a team that was nowhere near the most talented in the league and won 99 games and then 11-1 in the postseason.

 

what you said is valid and i will not dispute it. however retiring his number was a little

too quick.

 

as i said before, give hiim what he deserves esp helping in managing the team to a world

series victory. he does deserved that, but retiring his number.

 

coaches who were total butt heads, ummm Buddy ryan and Mike D.

Edited December 30, 2014 by LDF

[cabiness42]

what you said is valid and i will not dispute it. however retiring his number was a little

too quick.

 

as i said before, give hiim what he deserves esp helping in managing the team to a world

series victory. he does deserved that, but retiring his number.

 

coaches who were total butt heads, ummm Buddy ryan and Mike D.

 

I haven't read anything suggesting that a final decision has been made whether or not to retire his number. As of right now, they are simply not issuing the number. I'm fine with them not issuing the number for a few years to give some time to put historical context to his playing/managing career.

[LDF]

I haven't read anything suggesting that a final decision has been made whether or not to retire his number. As of right now, they are simply not issuing the number. I'm fine with them not issuing the number for a few years to give some time to put historical context to his playing/managing career.

 

thanks for simplifying this number thing. i really thought it was decided.

 

as i said, honor what he did, esp as a manager for the world series. do not

retire the number.

[Texsox]

Like him or not, he's on the Sox Mt. Rushmore

 

Thomas, Appling, Fisk, Fox

 

At least four ahead of Ozzie on a Sox Mt. Rushmore

[Texsox]

I think you have to be very selective about what or who's numbers you retire. I think the Bulls have done this very well. They haven't retired Tom Boerwinkle's number. Or Norm Van Lier's. Just to name a couple. Those were guys who were long time Bulls and/or very special players and well-loved by the fans. I think Ozzie perhaps could get recognition like the Bulls did for Phil Jackson. His name and banner is up there with Jordan, Pippen, Sloan and Love just reading "Jackson - Coach".

I like the idea too of having a White Sox Hall of Fame and not even having numbers retired. Wouldn't it then be a special honor to have the number of a White Sox Hall of Famer? When did the practice of sports teams retiring numbers begin anyway? It's a nice recognition of course. But maybe it needs to stop. Former players, coaches and managers can be honored with statues and plaques.......good enough.

Great post and to answer your question

 

In 1934 the Toronto Maple Leafs retired Ace Bailey's number after his career was ended by a nearly fatal cheap shot on the ice. A friend of mine os from Toronto and recalled the story one night while we were watching the Killer Bees play.

 

 

[LDF]

Like him or not, he's on the Sox Mt. Rushmore from the most memorable era in Sox history. 56 and 12 should be retired as well.

 

I know Ozzie hate is cool, though, so yeah, maybe they should start issuing it to non-roster invitees and bat-boys. Better yet; maybe they can retroactively change Toby Hall's number to 13 and then retire it, but with only Toby Hall's name attached to get the point across.

 

that is a great way of putting it. i really didn't think about it at first, but now i

really like it.

[LDF]

Ozzie made several crucial calls during the playoffs which were arguably the most important calls of their respective games.

 

bringing in El Duque with the bases loaded and no outs....

deciding to bring Buehrle in as a closer for the first time ever....

 

I could go on.

 

His importance to that playoff run and outcome cannot be equated with 'any other member of that team'

 

that is utterly foolish logic.

 

that was a randy johnson move that Seattle used in the playoff in the 90's.

[Douglas Rome]

someone said Ventura was a "better" player than Ozzie, really? I think Ozzie was

a good player, not good enough for number retirement. I think Ozzie was a good

manager, not good enough for number retirement. I think the Ozzie years were the

best out of the last sixty, but still not good enough for number retirement. When I think

of number retirement, I think of Ruth, Gehrig, Aaron, Williams, etc., not sure I'd include

any White Sox player ever in that company. thanks, douglas

[Balta1701]

someone said Ventura was a "better" player than Ozzie, really? I think Ozzie was

a good player, not good enough for number retirement. I think Ozzie was a good

manager, not good enough for number retirement. I think the Ozzie years were the

best out of the last sixty, but still not good enough for number retirement. When I think

of number retirement, I think of Ruth, Gehrig, Aaron, Williams, etc., not sure I'd include

any White Sox player ever in that company. thanks, douglas

Yes and it's not even really that close. Ventura was way, way, way, way, way, way, way better of a player than Ozzie.

[lasttriptotulsa]

someone said Ventura was a "better" player than Ozzie, really? I think Ozzie was

a good player, not good enough for number retirement. I think Ozzie was a good

manager, not good enough for number retirement. I think the Ozzie years were the

best out of the last sixty, but still not good enough for number retirement. When I think

of number retirement, I think of Ruth, Gehrig, Aaron, Williams, etc., not sure I'd include

any White Sox player ever in that company. thanks, douglas

 

Had Ventura not screwed his leg up in '97, he may have wound up with a plaque in Cooperstown. So yes he was a better player than Ozzie.

 

Even if you reserve number retirement for the best of the best in MLB history, not just Sox history, Thomas still gets his retired. He is one of the top 20 or so greatest offensive forces to ever play the game.

Edited January 3, 2015 by lasttriptotulsa

[flavum]

Had Ventura not screwed his leg up in '97, he may have wound up with a plaque in Cooperstown. So yes he was a better player than Ozzie.

 

Even if you reserve number retirement for the best of the best in MLB history, not just Sox history, Thomas still gets his retired. He is one of the top 20 or so greatest offensive forces to ever play the game.

 

No

[lasttriptotulsa]

No

 

From 1990-1999 (throwing out his lost '97 season) he averaged 4.9 fWAR, 22 HRs, 92 RBIs, with a .278/.367/.452 slash while winning 6 Gold Gloves. That is HOF type production when you factor in his defensive ability. After 1999, his condition kept worsening to the point that he could barely walk when he retired (and used a cane after retirement) and was relegated to playing 1st his last year. Lots of ifs and buts involved, but had he not gotten hurt he could have ended up with 400 HRs and 1500 RBIs. As a Gold Glove third baseman that would warrant HOF discussion. Even with the injury JAWS has him listed as the 20th greatest third baseman of all time.

Edited January 3, 2015 by lasttriptotulsa

[flavum]

From 1990-1999 (throwing out his lost '97 season) he averaged 4.9 fWAR, 22 HRs, 92 RBIs, with a .278/.367/.452 slash while winning 6 Gold Gloves. That is HOF type production when you factor in his defensive ability. After 1999, his condition kept worsening to the point that he could barely walk when he retired (and used a cane after retirement) and was relegated to playing 1st his last year. Lots of ifs and buts involved, but had he not gotten hurt he could have ended up with 400 HRs and 1500 RBIs. As a Gold Glove third baseman that would warrant HOF discussion. Even with the injury JAWS has him listed as the 20th greatest third baseman of all time.

 

Even with all of that, I watched Ventura's entire career and never once thought I was watching a future Hall of Fame player.

 

Obviously after his injury he was healthy enough to have a five pretty good seasons, so I don't know how much you can blame the ankle for shortening his career.

[TaylorStSox]

I agree. I think there should be different clothing for coaches and the manager, even if they've done it for this long. You don't see football coaches dressing up in pads or NBA coaches dressing up in a jersey and shorts.

 

I do not believe this will ever change because people do not believe it to be an issue, but it's really weird when you get to thinking about it.

Has basketball or football ever had a player/manager? I think it's one of those quirky things that gives baseball a unique identity.

[LDF]

Has basketball or football ever had a player/manager? I think it's one of those quirky things that gives baseball a unique identity.

 

yeah in football. a long time ago.

[Balta1701]

Has basketball or football ever had a player/manager? I think it's one of those quirky things that gives baseball a unique identity.

Here's a list of NBA Player-Coaches, last ones were in the early 70's (Lenny Wilkens apparently).

[Douglas Rome]

I watched both careers too, and I never thought either HOF, much less

number retirement. thanks, douglas

[southsider2k5]

Yes and it's not even really that close. Ventura was way, way, way, way, way, way, way better of a player than Ozzie.

 

Yeah, I don't know how you can even compare the two. Ozzie was a crafty hitter, and a great defender. Robin was a top notch defender AND a top notch hitter. I think if his peak lasted longer, we could have been talking about a borderline HOF case, even when you consider what the offensive era he played in, looked like. Getting the World Series twice would have also helped that case. No doubt the injury really hurt those chances.