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A Realistic Offseason

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8 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It was actually a creative non quantifiable way of drawing a talent. I don't agree with it but it was creative; I'll give them that l.

Look, I suppose that the Sox's alleged $250M + incentives offer could have been real, but I would bet you a million dollars that they didn't make that offer until they knew that somebody (San Diego) offered more guaranteed money. It just doesn't make sense than a notoriously cheap owner who never gave out a contract greater than $69M would suddenly be willing to commit to a 10-year, $250M deal. When it's that far out of character for the organization, I'm going to need a lot more than hearsay to believe something like that.

This whole sad Machado episode was a giant PR stunt where the Sox front office tried to convince fans that they were really, really serious about signing Manny without having to actually pay Manny. If they hadn't gone overboard and signed Alonso and Jay, their stunt might've been more believable.

Edited by Black_Jack29

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13 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Look, I suppose that the Sox's alleged $250M + incentives offer could have been real, but I would bet you a million dollars that they didn't make that offer until they knew that somebody (San Diego) offered more guaranteed money. It just doesn't make sense than a notoriously cheap owner who never gave out a contract greater than $69M would suddenly be willing to commit to a 10-year, $250M deal. When it's that far out of character for the organization, I'm going to need a lot more than hearsay to believe something like that.

This whole sad Machado episode was a giant PR stunt where the Sox front office tried to convince fans that they were really, really serious about signing Manny without having to actually pay Manny. If they hadn't gone overboard and signed Alonso and Jay, their stunt might've been more believable.

You really think the front office is obtuse enough to methodically lead on the entire fanbase for an entire winter about *maybe* signing a premier free agent?  Knowing fully half the fanbase would want to burn the stadium to the ground as a result?  That's bananaland crazy

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22 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It was actually a creative non quantifiable way of drawing a talent. I don't agree with it but it was creative; I'll give them that l.

And it turned out to be ineffective and embarrassing. Calling it "creative and non quantifiable" is sugar coating the hell out of it. The most money wins almost every time. You don't pull that tactic and underbid that much. Everybody and their mothers knew what these guys were looking for. Get to 300m to have a chance. They come away looking foolish and stuck with 2 piles of trash. 

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1 minute ago, wsd said:

You really think the front office is obtuse enough to methodically lead on the entire fanbase for an entire winter about *maybe* signing a premier free agent?  Knowing fully half the fanbase would want to burn the stadium to the ground as a result?  That's bananaland crazy

Yes, and the signings of Alonso and Jay are pretty strong evidence of that.

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41 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

I'm saying that the Sox front office has every incentive to mislead its fan base by pretending to pursue marquee free agents. The Alonso/Jay signings show how low they'll stoop to achieve this, so I don't see how leaking a fake offer is that much of a stretch.

There's no way to confirm any of this stuff because none of it's written down or recorded in any other way. It's not like making an offer to buy a house, where there's a dollar amount and signatures on a legal document.

No offense man, but you sound legit nuts here.  The Sox front office is not actively engaging in some conspiracy against their fanbase.  The Sox did not add Alonso & Jay to trick you and other fans into thinking they were pursuing marque free agents when they really weren’t.  They added those two because they honesty thought it would help them land Machado.  And they really wanted to sign Manny and legit made a $250M offer to him.  They ultimately lost out and failed because they wouldn’t guarantee years 9 & 10.  Rip them all you like for that because it’s idiotic they thought 8/$250M would get it done, but please stop with the conspiracy angles.

 

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Just now, Black_Jack29 said:

Yes, and the signings of Alonso and Jay are pretty strong evidence of that.

They wouldn't willingly eat that money and endure the ridicule that came with that "plan". They just wanted to try a cheaper way to get their guy. 

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I'd love to have Tsutsogoh and Castellanos. platoon in RF/DH and sign Grandal.  Tsutsugohs youtube video has me interested in this player.

 

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10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

No offense man, but you sound legit nuts here.  The Sox front office is not actively engaging in some conspiracy against their fanbase.  The Sox did not add Alonso & Jay to trick you and other fans into thinking they were pursuing marque free agents when they really weren’t.  They added those two because they honesty thought it would help them land Machado.  And they really wanted to sign Manny and legit made a $250M offer to him.  They ultimately lost out and failed because they wouldn’t guarantee years 9 & 10.  Rip them all you like for that because it’s idiotic they thought 8/$250M would get it done, but please stop with the conspiracy angles.

 

Given what you know about this organization, which is more likely: (1) JR wanted to be on the hook for paying Machado $250M over the next decade or (2) JR wanted Sox fans to believe that he did all he could to sign Machado.

Edited by Black_Jack29

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11 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Yes, and the signings of Alonso and Jay are pretty strong evidence of that.

They were cheap ways to lube up Machado's ego.  Who cares about those signings?  They weren't ever gonna be here for more than a year anyways.  The front office went to the extremes of their comfort levels of what they'd guarantee Machado knowing they're going to have a few players (Moncada, maybe Robert) in due time that are due for similar pay days.  If those incentive + incentive years kicked in and they owe him the extra 100MM he's more than likely dominating, so it'd be a good problem for them to have.

He wasn't even *that* good this year and we'll see how he ages.  There's a lot more they can do with that money than dump it all on one player.  Key is ya know... actually spending that money in the next 1-2 years.  

If November through March doesn't render 3-5 really good players (and I'm not talking about Cole or Rendon) then we have every right to freak out.  Losing out on Machado sucked, but I don't think it's worth talking about 9 months later.  It is what it is and there's still a path to contention without him

Edited by wsd
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5 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Not signing the best pitcher on the planet because it “might be risky” in several years is a losing mentality 

No, not signing a pitcher to a 250 million dollar deal when you have, lets say, 325 million to spend is not a bad strategy. The Sox arent "one player away" as stone says it so it's overly risky to invest 75% of your free agent pool into one asset.

Your better off spreading that risk out amongst 4 average-very good players than 1 great player and 1 average-good player, imo.

If Cole goes down year 1 with TJ hes out that year and some of the following and coming back at 32. If he's not the same, your rebuild has been harmed significantly due to one outcome.

If the Sox think Kopech and Gio are stars (Gio is), they may think it's better to invest the money evenly and acquire more pieces to spread the risk out. That's fine.

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Just now, wsd said:

The front office went to the extremes of their comfort levels of what they'd guarantee him knowing they're going to have a few players (Moncada, maybe Robert) in due time that are due for similar pay days.

Unless there's a change in ownership prior to 2024, the Sox are not going to re-sign Moncada and pay him the $40M/year that he's going to command on the FA market.

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4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No, not signing a pitcher to a 250 million dollar deal when you have, lets say, 325 million to spend is not a bad strategy. The Sox arent "one player away" as stone says it so it's overly risky to invest 75% of your free agent pool into one asset.

Your better off spreading that risk out amongst 4 average-very good players than 1 great player and 1 average-good player, imo.

If Cole goes down year 1 with TJ hes out that year and some of the following and coming back at 32. If he's not the same, your rebuild has been harmed significantly due to one outcome.

If the Sox think Kopech and Gio are stars (Gio is), they may think it's better to invest the money evenly and acquire more pieces to spread the risk out. That's fine.

I agree with this. The Sox are better off paying less to a guy like Wheeler, signing an average-to-below-average starter to anchor the bottom of the rotation, re-signing Abreu, going after a decent LH bat at the RH or DH spot, and seeing how Kopech, Cease, Robert, and Madrigal develop in 2020. Even with these additions, they're probably not a playoff team. They can always add more via free agency in 2021.

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Just now, Tony said:

In your mind, or JR’s mind, what do you think No. 2 really accomplished? Your premise doesn’t make sense, and No. 2 doesn’t accomplish anything, everyone knew that from the jump. 

It gives the impression that the Sox are trying, which is in contrast to what most of their fans believe.

If the Sox were serious about signing Machado, they would've out-bid San Diego.

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1 hour ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Debasing your franchise by cynically signing the targeted player's buddy and brother-in-law is also the opposite of business 101, so the Sox are clearly not playing by your rules.

What do you mean by “debasing your franchise”?

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49 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Look, I suppose that the Sox's alleged $250M + incentives offer could have been real, but I would bet you a million dollars that they didn't make that offer until they knew that somebody (San Diego) offered more guaranteed money. It just doesn't make sense than a notoriously cheap owner who never gave out a contract greater than $69M would suddenly be willing to commit to a 10-year, $250M deal. When it's that far out of character for the organization, I'm going to need a lot more than hearsay to believe something like that.

This whole sad Machado episode was a giant PR stunt where the Sox front office tried to convince fans that they were really, really serious about signing Manny without having to actually pay Manny. If they hadn't gone overboard and signed Alonso and Jay, their stunt might've been more believable.

What in the world are you talking about?  Take off the tin foil hat and read what you’re actually writing.  It’s complete utter nonsense.  

This wasn’t a PR stunt as missing out on Manny completely blew up in their faces.  The fanbase is still enraged about this and even skeptical than ever before (for god’s sake read your posts).  They simply botched the process and refused to go the distance with years 9 & 10.

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36 minutes ago, wsd said:

You really think the front office is obtuse enough to methodically lead on the entire fanbase for an entire winter about *maybe* signing a premier free agent?  Knowing fully half the fanbase would want to burn the stadium to the ground as a result?  That's bananaland crazy

It’s one of the craziest takes I have ever seen on this site.

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White Sox payroll is 50 million after arb.

Cole 33-35/Yr

JDM 25/Yr

Castellanos 16/Yr

Odorizzi 15/Yr

That's around 150 million after they re-sign Abreu.  I don't think 150 is a crazy number when they have been sitting on money for years while rebuilding.  13 million above league average in 2019.

JDM and Abreu are off the books when it's time to extend Yo and Gio.  

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34 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Yes, and the signings of Alonso and Jay are pretty strong evidence of that.

What in the world do you think this PR stunt was supposed to accomplish?

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1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What in the world are you talking about?  Take off the tin foil hat and read what you’re actually writing.  It’s complete utter nonsense.  

This wasn’t a PR stunt as missing out on Manny completely blew up in their faces.  The fanbase is still enraged about this and even skeptical than ever before (for god’s sake read your posts).  They simply botched the process and refused to go the distance with years 9 & 10.

So are you saying that the Sox front office didn't have the incentive to create the false impression that they're pursuing a big-money, marquee free agent, when they're struggling with attendance and were in the process of negotiating a new TV contract?

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25 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Given what you know about this organization, which is more likely: (1) JR wanted to be on the hook for paying Machado $250M over the next decade or (2) JR wanted Sox fans to believe that he did all he could to sign Machado.

(1) without question because he made that exact offer in hopes of landing him?

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Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

(1) without question because he made that exact offer in hopes of landing him?

Does it make sense that a notoriously cheap owner would want to be on the hook for $250M at age 83, when he's probably close to selling the team?

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Just now, Tony said:

Again, the key point you are missing, and have multiple members telling you the same thing........creating a false impression and coming in 2nd for Machado didn’t help the fan base. It didn’t help season tickets, it doesn’t do anything, except maybe anger people more. The strategy wasn’t to create that impression, the strategy was to sign Machado for their price, and they failed.

its just shocking you can’t figure this out. 

I never claimed that it was an intelligent strategy and, yes, it clearly backfired. (The silly signing of Alonso and Jay was a big part of it backfiring.) But I honestly believe that the Sox never intended to pay Machado $250M.

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18 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

It gives the impression that the Sox are trying, which is in contrast to what most of their fans believe.

If the Sox were serious about signing Machado, they would've out-bid San Diego.

Gives the impression the Sox are trying? The only impression Sox fans have of management when it comes to free agents is we always come in second place.  And somehow, you actually think putting on some great big spectacle but with the intentions of coming in second place would help their image.  Please don’t try getting a job in public relations, because you clearly don’t get how this shit works.

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1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Gives the impression the Sox are trying? The only impression Sox fans have of management when it comes to free agents is we always come in second place.  And somehow, you actually think putting on some great big spectacle but with the intentions of coming in second place would help their image.  Please don’t try getting a job in public relations, because you clearly don’t get how this shit works.

You can make all the disparaging comments you want, but it doesn't strengthen your argument.

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