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A Realistic Offseason

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5 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Do you have evidence that they actually offered that contract? Or are you relying on a "source" for that information? What makes you think that the Sox front office wouldn't leak a lie about a contract offer to improve their standing with their fan base, or that Machado's agent wouldn't leak a lie about an offer to improve his client's negotiating position?

A front office isnt leaking a fake peak offer when an agent and player knows the truth.

Players talk. Agents talk. This isnt a home game of "Bullshit." 

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run
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3 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Do you have evidence that they actually offered that contract? Or are you relying on a "source" for that information? What makes you think that the Sox front office wouldn't leak a lie about a contract offer to improve their standing with their fan base, or that Machado's agent wouldn't leak a lie about an offer to improve his clients negotiating position?

Are you actually suggesting the 8/$250M offer with vesting options for years 9 & 10 based on plate appearances and other incentives that could have pushed it up to $350M in total value is a lie that both baseball insiders and our front office have conjured up to “improve their standing their fan base”?

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Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

A front office isnt leaking a fake peak offer when an agent knows the truth.

If the fake offer improves the client's negotiating position, the agent will happily keep quiet and let another team out-bid it.

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Just now, Black_Jack29 said:

If the fake offer improves the client's negotiating position, the agent will happily keep quiet and let another team out-bid it.

This was released after Manny signed with the padres.

The fastest way to lose all credibility in a business world with revenues in the billions is to lie about contracts and compensation. The sox weren't releasing a fake final offer.

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Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

Are you actually suggesting the 8/$250M offer with vesting options for years 9 & 10 based on plate appearances and other incentives that could have pushed it up to $350M in total value is a lie that both baseball insiders and our front office have conjured up to “improve their standing their fan base”?

I'm saying that the Sox front office has every incentive to mislead its fan base by pretending to pursue marquee free agents. The Alonso/Jay signings show how low they'll stoop to achieve this, so I don't see how leaking a fake offer is that much of a stretch.

There's no way to confirm any of this stuff because none of it's written down or recorded in any other way. It's not like making an offer to buy a house, where there's a dollar amount and signatures on a legal document.

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3 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

I'm saying that the Sox front office has every incentive to mislead its fan base by pretending to pursue marquee free agents. The Alonso/Jay signings show how low they'll stoop to achieve this, so I don't see how leaking a fake offer is that much of a stretch.

There's no way to confirm any of this stuff because none of it's written down or recorded in any other way. It's not like making an offer to buy a house, where there's a dollar amount and signatures on a legal document.

You may think the White Sox are a Mickey mouse enterprise when compared to other big league franchises, but businessman/lawyer jerry reinsdorf isn't lying about a contract offer to an employee in a market in which agents and employees talk to everyone.

Jerry would openly lowball you to suppress the market way before he'd lie about a final contract offer.

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5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

This was released after Manny signed with the padres.

The fastest way to lose all credibility in a business world with revenues in the billions is to lie about contracts and compensation. The sox weren't releasing a fake final offer.

Not sure I agree with that, but the Sox could've very well made that offer after the Padres made their offer with more guaranteed money, knowing that Machado wouldn't have accepted it. This is why I tend to believe that the Sox actually made the initially reported $175M offer or whatever it was. Because it was a lowball offer that Machado likely laughed at.

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2 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Not sure I agree with that, but the Sox could've very well made that offer after the Padres made their offer with more guaranteed money, knowing that Machado wouldn't have accepted it. This is why I tend to believe that the Sox actually made the initially reported $175M offer or whatever it was. Because it was a lowball offer that Machado likely laughed at.

Releasing a low ball offer to suppress a market in negotiations is a classic strategy - business 101. 

Making a "fake" 350 million dollar offer with the assumption it'll be rejected is the opposite of business 101. No one makes a 350 million dollar risk to "gain support from fans."

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run
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1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You may think the White Sox are a Mickey mouse enterprise when compared to other big league franchises, but businessman/lawyer jerry reinsdorf isn't lying about a contract offer to an employee in a market in which agents and employees talk to everyone.

Jerry would openly lowball you to suppress the market way before he'd lie about a final contract offer.

Given that contract negotiations are confidential and between GMs and agents, there's all sorts of opportunity for lies and misinformation.

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1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Releasing a low ball offer to suppress a market of a negotiating strategy - business 101. 

Making a "fake" 350 million dollar offer with the assumption it'll be rejected is the opposite of business 101. No one makes a 350 million dollar risk to "gain support from fans."

Debasing your franchise by cynically signing the targeted player's buddy and brother-in-law is also the opposite of business 101, so the Sox are clearly not playing by your rules.

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6 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Debasing your franchise by cynically signing the targeted player's buddy and brother-in-law is also the opposite of business 101, so the Sox are clearly not playing by your rules.

It was actually a creative non quantifiable way of drawing a talent. I don't agree with it but it was creative; I'll give them that l.

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8 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It was actually a creative non quantifiable way of drawing a talent. I don't agree with it but it was creative; I'll give them that l.

Look, I suppose that the Sox's alleged $250M + incentives offer could have been real, but I would bet you a million dollars that they didn't make that offer until they knew that somebody (San Diego) offered more guaranteed money. It just doesn't make sense than a notoriously cheap owner who never gave out a contract greater than $69M would suddenly be willing to commit to a 10-year, $250M deal. When it's that far out of character for the organization, I'm going to need a lot more than hearsay to believe something like that.

This whole sad Machado episode was a giant PR stunt where the Sox front office tried to convince fans that they were really, really serious about signing Manny without having to actually pay Manny. If they hadn't gone overboard and signed Alonso and Jay, their stunt might've been more believable.

Edited by Black_Jack29

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13 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Look, I suppose that the Sox's alleged $250M + incentives offer could have been real, but I would bet you a million dollars that they didn't make that offer until they knew that somebody (San Diego) offered more guaranteed money. It just doesn't make sense than a notoriously cheap owner who never gave out a contract greater than $69M would suddenly be willing to commit to a 10-year, $250M deal. When it's that far out of character for the organization, I'm going to need a lot more than hearsay to believe something like that.

This whole sad Machado episode was a giant PR stunt where the Sox front office tried to convince fans that they were really, really serious about signing Manny without having to actually pay Manny. If they hadn't gone overboard and signed Alonso and Jay, their stunt might've been more believable.

You really think the front office is obtuse enough to methodically lead on the entire fanbase for an entire winter about *maybe* signing a premier free agent?  Knowing fully half the fanbase would want to burn the stadium to the ground as a result?  That's bananaland crazy

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22 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It was actually a creative non quantifiable way of drawing a talent. I don't agree with it but it was creative; I'll give them that l.

And it turned out to be ineffective and embarrassing. Calling it "creative and non quantifiable" is sugar coating the hell out of it. The most money wins almost every time. You don't pull that tactic and underbid that much. Everybody and their mothers knew what these guys were looking for. Get to 300m to have a chance. They come away looking foolish and stuck with 2 piles of trash. 

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1 minute ago, wsd said:

You really think the front office is obtuse enough to methodically lead on the entire fanbase for an entire winter about *maybe* signing a premier free agent?  Knowing fully half the fanbase would want to burn the stadium to the ground as a result?  That's bananaland crazy

Yes, and the signings of Alonso and Jay are pretty strong evidence of that.

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41 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

I'm saying that the Sox front office has every incentive to mislead its fan base by pretending to pursue marquee free agents. The Alonso/Jay signings show how low they'll stoop to achieve this, so I don't see how leaking a fake offer is that much of a stretch.

There's no way to confirm any of this stuff because none of it's written down or recorded in any other way. It's not like making an offer to buy a house, where there's a dollar amount and signatures on a legal document.

No offense man, but you sound legit nuts here.  The Sox front office is not actively engaging in some conspiracy against their fanbase.  The Sox did not add Alonso & Jay to trick you and other fans into thinking they were pursuing marque free agents when they really weren’t.  They added those two because they honesty thought it would help them land Machado.  And they really wanted to sign Manny and legit made a $250M offer to him.  They ultimately lost out and failed because they wouldn’t guarantee years 9 & 10.  Rip them all you like for that because it’s idiotic they thought 8/$250M would get it done, but please stop with the conspiracy angles.

 

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Just now, Black_Jack29 said:

Yes, and the signings of Alonso and Jay are pretty strong evidence of that.

They wouldn't willingly eat that money and endure the ridicule that came with that "plan". They just wanted to try a cheaper way to get their guy. 

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I'd love to have Tsutsogoh and Castellanos. platoon in RF/DH and sign Grandal.  Tsutsugohs youtube video has me interested in this player.

 

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10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

No offense man, but you sound legit nuts here.  The Sox front office is not actively engaging in some conspiracy against their fanbase.  The Sox did not add Alonso & Jay to trick you and other fans into thinking they were pursuing marque free agents when they really weren’t.  They added those two because they honesty thought it would help them land Machado.  And they really wanted to sign Manny and legit made a $250M offer to him.  They ultimately lost out and failed because they wouldn’t guarantee years 9 & 10.  Rip them all you like for that because it’s idiotic they thought 8/$250M would get it done, but please stop with the conspiracy angles.

 

Given what you know about this organization, which is more likely: (1) JR wanted to be on the hook for paying Machado $250M over the next decade or (2) JR wanted Sox fans to believe that he did all he could to sign Machado.

Edited by Black_Jack29

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11 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Yes, and the signings of Alonso and Jay are pretty strong evidence of that.

They were cheap ways to lube up Machado's ego.  Who cares about those signings?  They weren't ever gonna be here for more than a year anyways.  The front office went to the extremes of their comfort levels of what they'd guarantee Machado knowing they're going to have a few players (Moncada, maybe Robert) in due time that are due for similar pay days.  If those incentive + incentive years kicked in and they owe him the extra 100MM he's more than likely dominating, so it'd be a good problem for them to have.

He wasn't even *that* good this year and we'll see how he ages.  There's a lot more they can do with that money than dump it all on one player.  Key is ya know... actually spending that money in the next 1-2 years.  

If November through March doesn't render 3-5 really good players (and I'm not talking about Cole or Rendon) then we have every right to freak out.  Losing out on Machado sucked, but I don't think it's worth talking about 9 months later.  It is what it is and there's still a path to contention without him

Edited by wsd
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5 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Not signing the best pitcher on the planet because it “might be risky” in several years is a losing mentality 

No, not signing a pitcher to a 250 million dollar deal when you have, lets say, 325 million to spend is not a bad strategy. The Sox arent "one player away" as stone says it so it's overly risky to invest 75% of your free agent pool into one asset.

Your better off spreading that risk out amongst 4 average-very good players than 1 great player and 1 average-good player, imo.

If Cole goes down year 1 with TJ hes out that year and some of the following and coming back at 32. If he's not the same, your rebuild has been harmed significantly due to one outcome.

If the Sox think Kopech and Gio are stars (Gio is), they may think it's better to invest the money evenly and acquire more pieces to spread the risk out. That's fine.

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Just now, wsd said:

The front office went to the extremes of their comfort levels of what they'd guarantee him knowing they're going to have a few players (Moncada, maybe Robert) in due time that are due for similar pay days.

Unless there's a change in ownership prior to 2024, the Sox are not going to re-sign Moncada and pay him the $40M/year that he's going to command on the FA market.

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