Look at Ray Ray Run

Cool Dick, this doesn't change what was said and reported and what actually happened; no matter how many times you point to other things, my point was they have been said to be front runners on a lot of guys they did not sign. That is, by definition, being blusterous.

Where does this say "All bluster" Dick? They were a lot of Bluster. Everything I said in this post is true; outside of my speculation in the final sentence. Said Philly was a lot of bluster - point to two exact cases of this happening just last off-season (Machado and Corbin). Dick says I'm 100% wrong despite those things literally happening. My goodness.

I said they're a lot of bluster. You're nauseating.

What does any of this have to do with the point I made? My goodness man, you are just arguing at this point to argue. All I said is the Phillies have talked a lot about not being outbid only to be outbid. That was an accurate statement. Again, move the goal posts all you'd like.

So last year, the Phillies didn't jump into the lead as the front runner for Machado only to not even beat the Sox 2nd place offer? Last year the Phillies didn't say they wouldn't be outbid for Corbin only to be outbid for Corbin?

I actually think Wheeler's ceiling is higher but I understand I'm in the minority here.

Yeah, I'd give Cole whatever he wants. He's been a bill of good health, growth and consistency. He's much safer than everyone else on the market honestly.

The guy has thrown over 200 innings TWICE in 8 seasons. Expecting him to suddenly become a work horse at 32 years old is a reach. If his age 32 season is a down year, it's not exactly a glowing endorsement for seasons 35-38.

Never said they didn't. What about what I said was wrong? Sox signed Grandal; that doesn't change the fact that they've been a "front runner who won't be outbid" only to be outbid on Machado. The Phillies language has been similar.

The Phillies have been "spending stupid this off-season" like 10 off-seasons in a row and they've netted Harper and Arrieta. I never said they signed no one - I said they've been linked as "not being outbid" about as many times as the Sox in the past few years while falling flat.

I have no interest in anything over 6 years for Stras. I'm calling it now, but Stras has a down year next year after the work load he just put in.

Forgot about this; the Phillies always talk a lot. Tough to know what is real (Harper signing) and what is fake (Machado/Corbin comments).

I remember when Sox fans were so worried because the Phillies were the "new front runner" for Machado. Turned out they didn't beat the Sox or the Padres offer. Phillies are a lot of bluster. They may get this done, but this is typical Philly operations. They said they wouldn't exceed their internal valuations last year, and I don't see that changing. Phillies may sign him but I worry more about the Reds.

No offense to Rabbit, but who cares? He's not involved in these negotiations and the Sox are not the one leaking like a sieve right now. One thing I actually believed Rick on this off-season was that the organization was going to STFU. All we know is the Sox, reportedly, had the top offer but were willing to go higher if necessary - that was reported yesterday. The Phillies have clearly pushed the price up and the ball is now in the Sox court; we'll see what happens.

With teams bowing out, it looks like final bids are being submitted. May the best bid win.

Sure and I think 29 teams were correct.

At this point the longer this goes the better - if there was no counter to Phillies push then this will be announced soon. If theres a counter, it may take a day or two more.

I would sign wheeler for 5/125 - that was what I thought hed get. I'd sign him there. I just understand the position of that being too much. I'd guess 2/3 the league, or more, think 100 million is too much for wheeler.

Wheeler has never had a single season as good as greinke was last year.

This is how I see this. Also, nightengale said yesterday the sox were willing to go even higher than what they'd offered.

He has two years left on the deal. Last year he had a 5.4 fWAR. Is he suddenly going to be a 0 WAR pitcher with dead money next year? Dick, when is the dead money coming into place when theres 2 years left and he was just a top 10 pitcher in baseball last year? I'm full of myself because I don't think 2 years of greinke is the same dead money risk as 6 years of wheeler? My lord, make better arguments and pal.

Cool so you named one team who has developed more. KC? Minnesota? Yankees? Red Sox? Cubs? Astros? And on and on A lot of pretty good teams that never came close to developing a Sale/Quintana/Giolito set. Being critical of developing 3 TOR arms in a decade is nuts.

Yeah because hes shown so many signs of aging... he lost almost all his velocity and has barely missed a beat.

Everyone isnt overpaid in free agency. Some guys drum up more market than others. If bum signed for 4 years, 82 million could one really argue that 6/125 for wheeler made sense? I dont like Bumgarner at all and wheeler is probably my top target this off season and I think that's a bit much. Ftr, I want wheeler. I'd give him the money because I have an absurdly high projection and forecast for him, and think he can outpitch strasberg in this contract. I just also know that my valuation is really high and based on what wheeler has actually done, and his set of most likely outcomes, it could be argued to be a significant overpay.

That's a lot, ftr. I think you somehow meant your bottom paragraph as a shot at the team but its actually a compliment.