South Side Hit Men

Now this is a lineup worthy of multi championship discussion. Anderson SS Soto LF Abreu 1B Moncada 3B Jimenez DH Kelenic RF Robert CF Grandal (Or McCann) C Wong 2B

I remember Flukey Stokes being buried in a Cadillac Coffin.

Jerry was mostly cheap beyond the Fisk signing, just as he is now. They were never a consistently top half payroll team as they would have been under Debartolo. A few brief sports after the WS and when the new park opened. Even now, “all in” they are cheap beyond paying two managers to fulfill Jerry’s asinine fantasies. The only Top MLB Contract they pursued was Belle, solely because Jerry wanted to spite his fellow owners. He ended up dumping him after the second year, a year after the white flag trade , once spite ran its course and cheap and stupid returned in vogue. Hemond was replaced because Jerry wanted his guy, not Allyn/Veeck’s guy. So he and Dombrowski were purged, and Dombrowski travelled across America building multiple great clubs including the White Sox’ other nemesis (Detroit). Himes did great in the draft but was purged as well. Now stuck with White Sox Gar Pax entering year nine with now end beyond Jerry’s departure in sight. Same with the Bulls until a few years after Michael Reinsdorf took over and they could finally purge Gar Pax with Jerry gone. This. The dysfunctional organization starts at the top. Hang on to unqualified cheap cronies to run the show, don’t know how to or bother need to compete on the field to make money. It’s why the Sox and Bears have floundered for decades, and the Bulls for two decades once the gift of Portland’s blunder (Sam Bowie), Pippen and Jackson were gleefully purged by JR/Krause, followed by two decades of Paxton, a lottery pick (Rose) away from complete and abysmal failure. Same with the Blackhawks until Dollar Bill died, and the Cubs until the Tribune sold, competent baseball people were hired and the money spent. Once Jerry is gone, hopefully things will change for the better as they have for the Bulls, whether the Reinsdorf’s keep the team or not.

I’m not a big fan of keeping back both Lucroy and Hamilton on the roster once Engel can return. I’d be ok with both gone once Engel can return and they can bring in a fifth outfield capable of hitting, which Hamilton is not. You can get a fill in from one of the dozen tanking teams for either. I see it likely they keep Lucroy all year, really fear they keep Hamilton and this Katz guy (Turley) all year as well. What I would go with, keeping Vaughn at DH / 1B, at least once Engel can return. C 1B DH Abreu, Collins, Grandal, Vaughn. 2B 3B SS Anderson, Madrigal, Moncada, Mendick (Prefer Yolmer - he’s available). OF Eaton, Engel, Garcia, Robert, + (FA)

Thank you for the links. I read / remembered Jerome H's take at the time, was not aware of these articles. I stand corrected.

I was at the game the Sox fired their gameday staffer for playing this when Chuck Finley was warming up, shortly after his wife, Tawny Katten (see below) was arrested for kicking Chuck’s ass.

I explained Hamilton. Not sure I’d personally go with Mercedes (DH/C) or Lucroy (C) either, given Collins, but it appears the club is likely signing Lucroy to a Major League contract because he is a veteran Tony and Narron trust/like. Collins is only a OD lock now because of the Eloy injury and the Vaughn/Wild Thing experiment. Many here were arguing to keep Vaughn in Schaumburg pre Eloy injury to save Jerry money in the mid 2020s (so much for “all in”). Williams has shown nothing as an OFer (negative WAR each year primarily due to abysmal defense) since 2017. The club hasn’t played Beckham this Spring (3 at bats), and even if they thought of him as more than minor league depth, he has to complete his 80 game PED suspension, I’m not sure on how many games remain.

Roster construction, by Rick Hahn C, 1B, DH: (7) Abreu, Collins, Grandal, Jimenez, Lucroy, Mercedes, Vaughn. 2B, SS, 3B, RF, CF, LF: (8) Anderson, Eaton, Engel, Garcia, Madrigal, Mendick, Moncada, Robert. Capable ML fielders/hitters in the entire organization after years of tanking and high draft picks. Not including Hamilton beyond being a body to throw out there for emergencies until Garcia and Engel return. (.621 career OPS, .564 and .390 the past two seasons, or the equivalent of Nicky Delmonico level hitting).

No, you are not remembering what happened 35 years ago. This was La Russa's scheme, Harrelson signed off on it, asked Tony to pull the plug when it wasn't working. Tony dug in, went to Jerry and kept Fisk in LF for another week plus until finally conceding it was a complete debacle and shifting Fisk back to Catcher. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-06-22-8602140807-story.html

Yes, love Men at Work. Should definitely have a lively conversation for as long as this lasts. La Russa's Carlton Fisk in Left Field plan lasted 31 games before Hawk rightly put his foot down and said enough is enough. Not sure if that number is too high for the under/over on this "experiment". Just putting way to much on a 22 year old kid. it's hard enough to adjust to ML pitching straight from A ball. Add trying to learn a position on the fly with a significant risk of injury with no OF experience. Don't agree with the idea of getting cute with Hahn's pathetic roster depth and construction, stacked with seven players qualified to only field three positions (C 1B DH), and no OFers in the minors after years of tanking and drafting high. Suck it up, have Tony go into Jerry's office with the jaws of life to pry open Reinsdorf's wallet, or suck it up with the shitty roster depth and the limited actual OFers Hahn assembled until Engel returns, and then you have two platoon guys manning the corners at least until the trade deadline. You also better hope Adam Eaton, another player who doesn't know his physical limitations, can stay healthy for a good portion of the season. If this was Ricky Renteria's cockamamie plan, this board would go ape shit over it.

Rick Hahn and Tony La Russa: "So, you played outfield in little league, correct? And you haven't played above A ball. OK, so here's our brilliant plan. You are going to play left field on Opening Day and with a few Spring Training games to work the kinks out, and you're also expected to be a valuable hitter. Good luck and go get'em kid." It's like doubling down on 16 in Vegas.

There is a lot more going on than "baby fat". Eloy Jimenez has played a 177 games in the Major League. He has been injured six times. 4/26/19 - Ejoy Jimenez suffers a high ankle sprain attempting to play Left Field. Eloy is placed on IR, returned 5/20 7/16/19 - Ejoy Jimenez collides with Charlie Tilson attempting to play Left Field. Eloy suffers a right ulnar nerve contusion and is placed on IR, returned 7/28 7/26/20 - Ejoy Jimenez attacks the wall in Left Field with his head and losses that battle. Eloy avoids IR, returned 7/29 8/25/20 - Ejoy Jimenez twisted his ankle attempting to preserve celebrating Lucas Giolito's no hitter. Returned 8/27 9/24/20 - Ejoy Jimenez sprained his foot attempting to run the bases. Missed the remainder of the regular season, missed all but two at bats in the postseason. 3/23/21 - Ejoy Jimenez tears his pectoral tendon, attempting to play Left Field. Eloy is placed on the 60 Day IR, is expected to miss most if not all of the season. This doesn't even account for his -2.0 dWAR in 168 games in Left Field. They need Steve Dahl to go to Center Field, put Eloy Jimenez' glove in a box and blow it up upon his return to the team.

This. Robert doesn’t need to get into shape physically beyond getting timing down like every hitter. He needs to get mentally prepared for each at bat, and the grind of a full season (2019 (122) the only season above 56 games played). I’ve seen a lot of wasted at bats this Spring, swinging at a lot of garbage pitches, poor at bats. He needs to be hungrier and more focused, take advantage of the limited ST at bats to start the season right.

Well, with 2020 similar to an off season full of rest (32 games caught), Hahn’s latest roster construction mess, and Eloy’s lost season, 2021 is the likely best shot of the three to exceed “100ish” games over the rest of his contract. For his full time seasons, not counting his steroid suspension year or 2020 (2014-2019), he averaged 114.5 games played, don’t think it’s realistic to ask him to exceed that during the decline phase of his career.

I'm with you except for the Abreu part, he's playing through 2022, unless there is some type if severe injury or completely unexpected drop off in production. I know it was a short season, but he was MVP and is far more valuable in the present than Andrew Vaughn. They will have tough decisions for 2023, especially if Keuchel vests (160 IP next two years) and they are stuck with that $20M albatross of a deal. Would like the Sox to bring in Kim Ng as President, clean house, and give Abreu and opportunity in the FO or perhaps working with Paddy, if those options are something he is interested in, or just about anything else he would like to do with the organization. He has a great passion for the game, is smart, can be instrumental in continuing to recruit top Cuban players and is a person people love. He may also have 1 or 2 years left in the tank on the field, but they can evaluate that scenario in another 18 months.

Calling a jersey number “trash” is absurd.

I’ll be very disappointed if Vaughn isn’t wearing 99 today.

That’s short term, I agree Collins is likely a lock to open the season with what happened. However, will he be sent down in favor of Lucroy, even if he continues to out play Lucroy? Are they going to keep a Hamilton and Turley all year? I’d give La Russa a lot of credit if they go against their personal preference and bypass veterans they brought in, when it becomes clear there are better younger alternatives already here.

I agree, he should be the backup catcher. He could not have done anything more in Arizona. Steve Stone said on the Score two weeks ago he is an eventual starting catcher in this league, and he isn’t going to cost you much in terms of salary. How the Sox manage their roster out of Spring will be more enlightening in terms of how things will work out with La Russa and his staff more so than what they do with LF before Engel returns. Will they stick with the inferior veteran options they brought in (Lucroy, Hamilton, Turley) because they are guys “known” by the manager and staff, or will the go with the superior options (Collins, any OF on Earth, Ruiz) because there was an honest competition, and the better player is given an opportunity.

Data spewed from politicians are a majority of the time bullshit, be it Cuomo or DeSantis. Same thing with data from MLB Owners saying they "lost" billions last year. Always watch the money and how it flows, and look at data anomalies. There are differences between state reporting COVID methodology. One way to eliminate reporting is just count the increase in total death by state, 2020 vs. 2019, which cannot be manipulated. Total Florida Deaths increased from 206,975 to 246,448 (Take total through 3/20/21 and back out through WE 1/9/21), or 19.1%. Total Illinois Deaths increased from 108.937 to 130,426, or 19.7% Total California Deaths increased from 270,780 to 327,650, or 21.0%. Total New Jersey Deaths increased from 74,675 to 95,551, or 28.0% Apparently it takes over 15 months for New York State to count the number of 2019 deaths. These states which "did the right thing" have a higher increase in deaths in 2020, despite the fact that both average age / mortality and obesity (except Illinois, which is 4.4% more obese, though much younger) would favor these states in terms of COVID death rate based on the fact that most COVID death involved people either 65 and or obese. Looking at the CDC data, it is clear the United States across all 50 states did not attribute COVID deaths correctly. The average death rate between diagnosis and total deaths across the entire country is 12.9%, with states varying from 10%-15%. It's clear based on the substantially larger mortality rate that these numbers are undereported, that is why it is best to use year over year total deaths to get a better picture as to a more accurate death toll.

Death rate by state. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/ Cases by state https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109004/coronavirus-covid19-cases-rate-us-americans-by-state/

Yes, the fish rots from the head down. It was Jerry's brilliant idea to fire Hemond and bring in Hawk. Hawk also purged Dave Dombrowski, architect of the great 1990s Expos teams, Miami's two World Series Championship teams, Detroit's two AL Pennants, another WS title in Boston and likely a solid contending team with the Phillies after he gets a few years to clean up that mess (the bullpen is already much improved, their major issue the past few seasons).

You also have 40-60 games of Grandal DH/1B time to consider, because at his age he likely can't catch much beyond 100, assuming he will be healthy enough to do so during his final three seasons (he only caught 32 last season). And if you say fuck it, make him catch 120/130, good luck with his health or any playoff production if he survives the season. The other option is sitting $18M in salary for 40-60 games because Hahn was excited last December, despite having solid a solid starting catcher. People bashed me for daring to criticize their poor roster construction and heavy portion of payroll dedicated to players in their 30s, instead of adding more depth across several players and pitchers. This isn't the only injury that will occur this season, and the architect of this roster is entrenched as long as Jerry is alive, so I don't expect anything thing to change next off-season or beyond.

With Engel out, they are limited in OF. They were last year when Hahn was spending $36M on Grandal, Parrot and Mazara, and ended up with Nicky Delmonico in RF on OD. I'd bring up and start Collins over Lucroy, but the manager and Narron are likely to side with "veteran presence". That's why Billy Hamilton was brought in, before the Eloy injury. My lineup is based on what I believe La Russa and Narron will do. Garcia is the best actual outfielder option unless they go out an get another OFer before OD. Does Vaughn even own a mitt beyond a 1B mitt? It's reckless to put him out there, even with a one week crash course. Then again, recklessness is how they got to this point. It is ironic that La Russa was shitcanned in part for his experiment of Carlton Fisk in Left Field.