SI1020

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 29, 2011 -> 09:05 PM) And Lee has always been known as a "stats and me first," selfish, non-team oriented player, for a number of reasons. He was a Cub killer though, and for that alone I had some appreciation for him.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 03:25 AM) It will be hopefully helpful if he doesn't spend this season dealing with soreness from a broken hand the whole time. I keep reading that but I notice in his last 10 games with Charlotte he went 12 for 35 with 4 HR and 10 RBI. So I'm just going to repeat that his latest September call up was a disappointment.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 01:38 AM) But Viciedo is pretty likely to be just as productive as Quentin was last season....since Carlos missed 40 games roughly and only had 77 RBI's. I hope so but he disappointed greatly last September.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 06:10 PM) 7.8 WAR over 4 seasons. 1.95 WAR/Season This is completely s***ty for the amount of money he makes. I liked Quentin too, but this move had to be made. I know you'll never understand this stuff, but the move was in the best interest of the team. BUT since it's an appreciation thread, TCQ when you were locked in you could mash better than anyone in the game. He was just scary at the plate, and I'll remember that. Best of luck in SD. I look at all the stats, the old ones and the new. WAR ain't everything. Before last season Adam Dunn had a higher lifetime WAR than Paul Konerko. So yes I refuse to be a slave to the newer stats. As for the topic at hand, Greg I feel your pain. TCQ was one of my favorites. Like others I could get so frustrated with him at times, but I still think he has a chance to make an impact year in year out. Just stay healthy. I wouldn't be surprised if he thrives in his hometown. Best of everything to him, and thanks for the effort.

QUOTE (jasonxctf @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 03:50 AM) So as of now, I'm guessing this is the 2012 lineup? 1. DeAza-LF 2. Ramirez-SS 3. Konerko-1B 4. Dunn-DH 5. Viciedo-RF 6. Rios-CF 7. AJP-C 8. Beckham-2B 9. Morel-3B Awesome.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Dec 28, 2011 -> 05:46 PM) A powerhouse? Comparing the rotation to the Braves of the 90's? Really? Some hardcore Kool Aid drinking in here. While I definitely like certain pieces of the rotation, there are so many question marks at this point. Gavin might be traded, Humber might still be the back-end starter many people thought he was, Sale still has to replicate his bullpen success as a member of the rotation, and concluding Molina an ace after a mere 22 innings of AA pitching is ludicrous. Sure the rotation could be great if everything goes right, but the same could be said about the majority of major league pitching staffs. This is what I thought immediately but we're at post #23 before someone says as much. Does no one notice that both Danks and Floyd peaked in 08 and have been for the most part backsliding since then? I like Sale a lot, but he has the dreaded inverted W pitching motion. Sorry, but he looks like an accident waiting to happen. Hopefully he will succeed, his stuff can be very impressive. I think Humber reached the outer limits of his ability last year. Nestor Molina? Very promising IMO, lots to be optimistic about, but time will tell. Everything will have to shake down just right for this staff to come close to resembling the 90's Braves.

QUOTE (joeynach @ Dec 3, 2011 -> 11:20 PM) I have heard this explanation for Beckham's struggle but after my analysis I found this statement to be false. My interpretation is that Beckham's approach at the plate has become worse and worse since his solid 09. Numbers show the league has not pitched him differently, he still sees the same FB% (60%), SL% (17%), and CH% (8%) now (2011) as he did in 09 and 10. I have looked over his metrics on fangraphs time and time again and the numbers tell the story. Its his plate disciple and selection of pitches is what has hurt is offensive ability. All the other peripherals remain constant, his LD%, BABIP, GB/FB ratio, etc. The problem is his lack of patience and his poor plate disciple, he has seriously expanded his strike zone. Look at his O Swing %, The percentage of pitches a batter swings at outside the strike zone. In 2009 it was 24.7%, by 2011 this was up to 37%. His raw swing % has also increased ( a sign of poor discipline), from 47% in 2009 to 51% in 2011. To make things worse his contact rate on pitches outside of the zone, known as O Contact %, has actually increased, from 59% in 2009 to 69% in 2011. This is bad b/c it reinforces a bad habit, making more contact on bad pitches out of zone is not a good thing, hes not Vlad Guerrero. Now add the other negative results of poor plate discipline into the equation. A decreased in walk rate, from 9.5% his rookie year to 6.2% in 2011. Same thing for K rate, as a result of his poor plate disciple he is striking out more too, from 15% in 2009 to just under 20% in 2011. Anyone who watched him this past year probably saw him swinging at a lot of poor pitches early in the count and constantly being in 0-1, 0-2, 1-2 counts, which usually ended in a K. Beckham's problem is not talent, its not even mechanical, its mental. Its about his approach, its about self-recognition, coaching, and practice. If those who believe Greg Walker didnt help Beckham than they have have been right. Someone, the hitting coach probably, should have worked extra hard with him to be much much more patient and drill selective aggression into him as the approach he should take. Someone should have (and needs to) tell him that for his purposes they would rather see him take a few more pitches than usual, with the hopes of getting into more hitters counts, even if it leads to more K looking, then swing at the first three pitches (outside of the zone) and strikeout. Beckham is still a young hitter and need to be coached up a bit, I cant say for sure what if anything Walker did for him, but its rather obvious to me after looking at fangraphs for 5 min what Beckhams problem is then it should be cake walk for a hitting coach. Right? This is one thing that really worried me with what I am calling our new assclown of a hitting coach. What worries me is that Jeff Manto doesnt seem to value plate discipline and OBP, at least not from the comments hes made thus far. He doesnt seem to care for metrics and numbers, even basic numbers like O Swing %. If thats the case it would a fair assumption to make that he HAS NOT and WILL NOT recognize this repeated trend in Beckham's approach at the plate. The problem is fairly simple to fix and requires just a bit of statistical analysis, some recognition, and some practice. I firmly believe that if no one, coach or beckham himself, recognizes plate discipline as the main culprit and works to curb the issue, then I am afraid he will continue to decline into a Khalil Greene type player, all glove no bat, perfect for the Padres, bad for an AL club and just not that valuable. I feel the need to go back to school and get my PHD after reading all this. I will have to strongly argue that mechanics has nothing to do with Beckham's problems. His swing in college and for the most part his rookie year was compact and fluid, albeit with a slight load or hitch if you want to call it that. Now he has the same loopy hole that ruined so many other young Sox hitters. Even Joe Crede struggled with that and unfortunately his back gave out after he seemed to figure it out at the plate. Gordon Beckham now reminds me of another SEC phenom Warren Morris who flashed brilliance with the Pirates and then quickly faded out. If in fact this turns out to be the case with Beckham it will be both unfortunate and unforgivable. Beckham has lots of natural talent and there is no good reason for him to fail, like say a Joe Borchard, who had obvious flaws too big to overcome.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 06:05 PM) Legal? I think I was 10 the first time I was in McCuddy's My dad and uncle didn't patronize the place. When I started going to games myself I was still too young to drink. Then when I was I tried to make up for lost time. It was a dump, but I loved it.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 9, 2011 -> 09:32 PM) Back in the days of the old park, and when Robert Taylor homes were still there, there was very good reason to be scared of it. No way I would have gone there. But now? Works great, and I feel no less safe than at the Red Line stop. Way back in the day the green line used to go to Howard. When I lived in Uptown and Edgewater that is usually how I got to the park, day and night games. The platform was more often than not crowded at 35th street and I never even came close to a bad incident getting off the train and walking to the park, or on the return trip after the game. Various vendors usually lined 35th street. When I became legal I often would make a stop at McCuddy's before entering the grand old ball park.

QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 04:13 PM) Sox drew 2.5 million fans in 2008. 5th out of 14 AL teams.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 26, 2011 -> 09:29 PM) The real problem is that in order to trade them for that 6 pack and peanuts, you'd have to chip in $50 million right now. That's why they're not being moved yet. And no matter how much we'd dislike the sight of them in the Sox starting lineup next year, it must happen. It's the only way to start knocking down that $50 million towards an amount that might be reasonable. I agree. QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 26, 2011 -> 11:31 PM) Which is what most fans seem to not understand. You cant even give these guys away without giving another team vasts amount of money. At this point, it's so unfeasible to get another team to take them on that it's best for the Sox to just hold onto them. And I understand. Hopefully they can get productive enough to unload on someone before the trade deadline, and get a little more than the 6 pack and salted peanuts and 50 million owed on them.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Nov 26, 2011 -> 08:13 PM) No, you seem to be an idiot right now because you still don't understand what I was saying. I said everyone agrees with you that they'd like to see them traded. I was disagreeing with your "I'm pretty sure it's not popular" statement preceding your view on Dunn and Rios. You know why? That's because it is popular. Should I keep explaining this? Or do you finally understand? Do you want to box or wrestle? Obviously not everyone agrees with me on this, so why are your panties in a bunch because I didn't phrase my original post the way you wanted? I can't stand the thought of another inning of Rios and Dunn on the Sox. It ain't gonna happen and lots of Sox fans don't agree with that opinion. This isn't the only Sox or baseball forum in the world and I've been taken to task more than once for my opinion on this subject. Maybe Rasmussen or Zogby can do a scientific poll. I'm pretty sure Rios and Dunn are about as popular as bedbugs but I'm not so sure everyone wants to trade them for a six pack and some salted peanuts which at this point I am perfectly willing to do.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 26, 2011 -> 07:03 PM) If those 2 come out and do those things, and start off at that pace for 2 months, I'll be happy to start more "Please Trade Dunn and Rios NOW" threads. Because the second they can be moved without eating the remainder of their contracts is the second they should be moved. I'm an idiot for taking that opinion into consideration.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Nov 26, 2011 -> 05:30 AM) What I was saying is that everybody agrees with you. We'd all like to rid ourselves of them and their contracts (barring a huge resurgence from Dunn). So, labeling it as possibly being unpopular around here was kind of stupid I knew what you were saying. Next time I'll be more careful and take a poll first.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Nov 25, 2011 -> 10:29 PM) I can't believe people post without clearly ever reading anything from other posters on this board. Well sorry for not profiling all of you. I realize the rage is great for these two but their contracts are an albatross and it is not uncommon to read here, there, and everywhere that they are near impossible to move. So in that context being the cautious guy I am, I phrased it in the way that upset you. Hope you and yours had a nice Thanksgiving.

I don't say it's impossible for Dunn to bounce back but I don't see any reason whatsover to be confident that he will. My best hope is that he'll merely be lousy next year instead of mind numbing bad. Besides, baseball has turned a page from the smack em out steroid era, which included worship of one dimensionals like Adam Dunn. I'm pretty sure it's not popular, but I'd really like to see both he and Rios gone. Rios was a thoroughly unlikeable player and person last year who dogged it shamelessly. As for Dunn, I was willing to forgive him everything until he blew it with me when he couldn't even reach across the bag to snag a moderately difficult throw to first. Man you're having possibly the worst year in the history of the game and you can extend yourself a little for the team in the field? Dunn, Rios and Peavy ruined what could and should have been a worthwhile year. I still cut Peavy a little slack because of his injury, but he needs to shut up and pitch.

I think if I ever hear or read the words "regression to the mean" again I just may go bat crazy. As for Humber, just based on my observations and his past history, every else be damned, I think we've seen the best of him. At best he is a back end of the rotation kind of guy. Sox pitching may very well be dreadful next year.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 13, 2011 -> 03:38 PM) Did anyone else think that Cain looked much less cut last night than he did vs Brock? The first thing I thought when i saw him take his shirt off was "He looks kind of doughey" I thought the same exact thing. I also saw tentativeness even fear in his eyes. Dos Santos OTOH looked loaded for bear.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Nov 19, 2011 -> 07:59 PM) The trade Dunn/Rios posts have to be in jest now, right? Right? I'm not jesting. I never want to see either of them in a Sox uniform again. Rios may be my most un favorite White Sox player ever.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Nov 17, 2011 -> 03:18 AM) My excitement is blah right now. The current state of the Sox reminds me of the 1998-2000 era when we decided to go young in attempt to build young talent around Frank Thomas. This time they will try to do the same around Konerko. The Mark Buerhle situation makes me super sad. It will be tough to get over that one if he indeed moves on. And by the looks of it- he indeed will do so. I am excited to see what type of deals he makes in attempt to improve the clubs farm system and future. It reminds me of the 86-89 era. I hope when they start playing that they don't remind me of 68-70.

Maybe he"ll work out and maybe not. I haven't seen anything earth shattering or sacrilegious to his statements be they five years old or more recent. Isn't it just a little early for the pitchforks?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 2, 2011 -> 02:27 PM) See, this condescending attitude is what pisses me off about sabr advocates. It's always thumbing your nose at anything that doesn't abide strictly by some incredibly general set of data, despite the fact that there are always scenarios that the data is simply not specific enough to address. Amen to that. Few things worse than anal devotion to any sort of dogma.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 08:55 PM) If we're going to be playing the spin-this-into-a-negative game this offseason, then I'm leaving. Unbelievable. The guy hasn't even started his first day on the job and we hate him. No we don't. At least no I don't. What I hate is trendiness in life and in this case slavish devotion to Jamesian dogma concerning stats.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Oct 30, 2011 -> 02:47 PM) I'd say the Blue Jays and the Cardinals won it. The Cardinals got a needed starter for a talented, albeit struggling outfielder. The Blue Jays got a high-upside outfielder and a Kenny contract for Jason Frasor. The White Sox got Jason Frasor and a busted SP spect. There are two winners, and one clear, obvious loser. That looks to me like a good observation. Of course it's important to see how everyone involved performs in the coming years.

QUOTE (Hawkfan @ Oct 29, 2011 -> 02:32 PM) I don't see how we lost considering we had 6 Starting pitchers, The worst player ever in Mark Teahen, and an appetite for Relief Pitchers. Trades are not a zero sum game. If the Cardinals Had Adam Dunn, and we had pujols, we would have won 207 regular season games this year. Exactly. Also it often takes years to properly evaluate a trade. I don't miss Edwin Jackson and I'm very happy for him that he was able get that ring.