Chisoxfn

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 10, 2013 -> 01:27 PM) And I'll say again...if he was only going to get to the end of his first 1/2 season in the big leagues to prove himself, since he spent so long in the minors dealing with a serious medical issue, then it was crazy to call him up. He'd have had a ton more value coming off an 1.100 OPS season in AAA at age 25 in the offseason than after a couple months of struggles in the big leagues if the team was going to ditch him for McCann. That's the exact opposite of maximizing the value of guys you have, that's destroying the value of one of them. Maximizing value for Phegley? He wouldn't have even came close to cracking a top 100 prospect list, probably wouldn't even crack a top 200 prospect list. Phegley's best value is and was with the White Sox and if he turns into a solid back-up catcher thats freaking great and we should be thankful (and if he plays well down the stretch and shows maybe he could be a starter, great). However, he's done nothing to indicate he's going to be an above average catcher (that isn't based upon just 22 games in the majors) and the White Sox shouldn't be in the business of giving guys with an upside of being at best a league average catcher years and years when you could potentially fill that need with a well above average player.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 10, 2013 -> 01:27 PM) And I'll say again...if he was only going to get to the end of his first 1/2 season in the big leagues to prove himself, since he spent so long in the minors dealing with a serious medical issue, then it was crazy to call him up. He'd have had a ton more value coming off an 1.100 OPS season in AAA at age 25 in the offseason than after a couple months of struggles in the big leagues if the team was going to ditch him for McCann. That's the exact opposite of maximizing the value of guys you have, that's destroying the value of one of them. He should consider himself lucky to get half a season to prove his salt. Most prospects of his level wouldn't get near that sort of opportunity. It is hard to get an everyday starting job and good organizations don't just hand those jobs out to joe blow. They hand those jobs to elite prospects or guys that grab the job by the horn. In a half season, you get a pretty good vision of a guys skill-set and I really don't understand how you can't comprehend that. You could hit .220 but make progress is different areas, show good tools, etc, and prove worthy of another season. Someone else that hit .220 could show that was their ceiling and not be worth anything. I really don't know what to say if you can't comprehend that but running a major league team involves more brains then just handing every AAA guy that had one good year a starting job for 2 years. Phegley wasn't some raw 21 year old catcher with a tool box that we were going to be coaching up at the big league level. He was a fringe prospect who was hot this year (maybe he was in fact healthy for the 1st time and showing who he really was) that had earned at least a shot at a starting job. He's going to get half of a year at the major league level and that is a long time for talent evaluators to get an opinion. Now if the White Sox aren't trying to compete next year, sure, give Pheg's and Flowers another year, but in my opinion Flowers has had plenty of time to prove it and Phegley has another 40 games to show whether he potentially has what it takes to be a big league starter. I'm not saying he needs to hit .300 in the next 40 games but he sure as s*** has to show flashes, make progress, give you a reason to consider going into next year with him as your starter. Should the White Sox have given Andy Gonzalez another full season to further prove he was a bum? Should we keep running Axelrods broke ass out there? If Axelrod was throwing 98 with some plus stuff, sure, I wouldn't write him off...but he was a smoke and mirrors guy who had good minor league success. Why not see if it worked at the big league level but now that he's had some action its pretty evident that he can't hack it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 10, 2013 -> 01:20 PM) The "everything that can go wrong will go wrong" skepticism that's set in with most of us, haha? Actually, knowing the White Sox, they'll pleasantly surprise and be competitive for at least half the season and nobody will notice or care because ALMOST everyone's given up on the team already until 2015. The "back-up QB" phenomenon definitely applies here to Phegley....now that he's struggling, the board's back to giving McCann big bucks. I'd agree there is ZERO to lose letting him play nearly everyday...though...with the caveat that Morel put together a strong final month in terms of power in a similar pressure-free situation but it was a mirage and had no carryover effect. That said, other than dealing with health issues, there's little in common between Morel and Phegley, other than the fact that they're "cursed" White Sox position prospects. Morel showed enough to get the right to be handed a starting job. Unfortunately he got sick as can be, lost wait, and then had a back injury, etc. Ruined his career. I don't know if he would have been good but he had earned that opportunity through what he showed at the major league level, the minor league level, and of course his toolset. Brent Morel was a much better prospect then Josh Phegley.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 10, 2013 -> 01:11 PM) See, this is exactly what I mean about a lack of patience. Phegley showed at Charlotte this year that he has the talent to be a solid run producer, but we called him up after 3 months of solid hitting out of his entire minor league career. Declaring that he "isn't showing a lot to like about his long-term potential" is just wrong. If he was still down in Charlotte until July 31, people would have been begging for him to be up for another month. He's in a slump now in his 2nd month in the big leagues. Saying things like "he isn't showing a lot to like about his long term potential" is what I keep harping about, it's the exact opposite of what we should be doing. We shouldn't have even called him up if we're just going to toss him aside after 3 months; we'd have been better off letting him rake at Charlotte and then trading him in the offseason. I don't give a rats behind about what he did in his 2nd full year in Charlotte. He hasn't done diddly squat to prove himself as some elite prospect. See my other post. Lets not make it out that we are writing off a top prospect in 22 games (plus...where did I write him off after 22 games). If it took 2 seasons to evaluate a young player, we could all have jobs in the bigs but the reality is good organizations have to make decisions much sooner than that. You can't just give all these guys an unlimited number of bats to put up or shut up. You have to make calls based upon a combination of past production, current production, and of course their tools. s***, I'm probably one of the most patient people out there when it comes to prospects...but I sure as s*** aren't just going to hand guys at bats just because they had one good year in AAA. That doesn't give them a free pass to play like s*** for 2 years in the majors. By the end of this year, the White Sox will know a lot more about Josh Phegley and if he's producing like he is now and not making progress, I'll have seen all I need to (and I'd expect most scouts with half a brain would as well) to know that he doesn't project to be an everyday starting catcher.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 10, 2013 -> 01:06 PM) Of course Soxtalk has, Soxtalk declares guys failed after 2 weeks of slumping. What really matters of course is how the org feels about these guys. We already saw them give 2+ years of struggles to Beckham and still treat him as a starter and let him grow up. Phegley showed real promise this year in Charlotte, but him struggling when he got called up was completely expected. It's up to the guys in the organization to decide whether his struggles are normal or whether they really don't think he can cut it. Personally I'd be really surprised if they signed McCann. They might kick the tires on him in case the market isn't there, but someone else will offer him much better money than we should. Beckham crushed the ball at the major league level for half a season, was a high 1st round draft pick, tore up the minors, and was one of the best prospects in all of baseball. You will never hear anyone describe Phegley as anything of the sort. Major difference. Oh and Beckham also plays well above average defense at 2B so even if his bat was struggling, you got value on the other side of the ball. Viciedo was given a pretty big contract out of cuba, hit at all levels (despite being young for his age) and has shown plus offensive tools and in streaks has been a hell of a productive player. You can see the potential. Even Viciedo is to the point that next year is his last year with the Sox to prove himself. If he doesn't take big steps forward, he's done with our club and can go somewhere else. Phegley, too his credit has had to overcome a lot of issues, and that makes it harder to judge him, but he had one .700 OPS season or better in the minors entering this year and in almost a full season at AAA last year (where he was age appropriate) he put up a .680 OPS. He doesn't bring excellent defensive tools to the equation (although to his credit he's made himself a much better defensive player then anyone thought he would be coming out of college). There is nothing about his past production or to be frank his toolset which would make me want to hand him a starting job next year (unless of course he makes progress in his time at the major league level). And I'm not writing him off in 22 major league games, but he wasn't going to get near as long of a rope based upon his performance in the minors and overall tools. By the end of the year he'll likely have 50-60 games under his belt and if he's still hitting .210 with a poor approach and what looks to be a slow bat, then if I were the GM, I'd be looking for someone else to be our catcher. Tyler Flowers....dude is hitting under .200 in a career 186 major league games and has shown almost no improvements at the plate. Again, what makes me as an organization want to give him another year? Nothing. The difference in career offensive performance between Viciedo and Flowers / Phegley (at the major league level) has been pretty drastic. In FLowers case, he had some great minor league production and a better offensive tool-set (e.g., good patience and tons of power) which led me to be more willing to be patient. For all the b****ing about Viciedo, he put up a .744 OPS last year (w/25 hr's). It is scary how his power production has subsided this year though. Two weeks ago I was talking about the progress Dayan has made but boy he is having a hard time getting the most out of his tools at the plate right now. However, the 25 hr's in the majors at 23, along with the minor league production (and of course tools...he's got a quick ass bat), make me willing to be more patient with him. His upside is that of an above average offensive player. I don't see Josh Phegley's upside of being an above average starting catcher. His upside is an average to slightly below average all around catcher (at best...if he completely maximized his skill-set, which is rare) and his floor is a whole lot worse, imo. His most likely scenario (in my opinion) is that of a backup catcher / career AAAA er.

QUOTE (EvilJester99 @ Aug 10, 2013 -> 12:59 PM) Seems everyone wants McCann.. does that mean everyone has already given up on Phegley?? Phegley has some time but he was never the type of prospect you would pencil into the catcher spot for 2 years. He was never even a top 5 prospect in our system (our system). I haven't given up on him but he certainly isn't showing a lot to like about his long-term potential. It would be easier to live with his poor approach if he was a legit defensive catcher but while he isn't a terrible defender he certainly isn't a strong defender so if he can't hit, he brings very little value. If you have the opportunity to sign one of the premiere catchers in the game, I say go for it. It allows you to give Viciedo and some other guys more time to develop because you can get well above average production out of the catchers position. There are still 2 months left of the season though and Phegley will get every opportunity to develop and grow and give the organization a sense of whether he can be an every day starting catcher.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Aug 10, 2013 -> 12:49 PM) I think some of you are a bit ambitious thinking that McCann will be signable. Why wouldn't the Braves be very aggressive in signing him? Because they have Gattis in reserve? Maybe that's all it takes, but Braves are loaded with cash, I would guess, so I will expect them to do their best to keep McCann. They don't have anyone else in the high minors to replace him. Plus, he is a local boy and been with the org. since day 1. It would be great to get him, but my guess is that 2014 will feature Phegley and Flowers. Are the Braves loaded with cash? They've made some big signings recently which didn't pay off and have always tried to keep their payroll at a reasonable level. And I'm not saying we will sign him but if i were the GM, he'd be #1 on my list.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 10, 2013 -> 12:24 PM) We could sign AJ for a year at catcher. What will he cost? 3 mill? That could fill that hole for one year at a very cheap cost. AJ will get more then that. He signed for 7.5M this past year and while he was hurt his production has been pretty good. 12 hr's and .275 average I wouldn't be surprised if the Sox looked at him, but I assume AJ would like to play on a more sure thing and wouldn't be surprised if he resigned with Texas.

QUOTE (kev211 @ Aug 10, 2013 -> 11:32 AM) Holy s***. Avisail has the chance to be something special.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 10, 2013 -> 11:32 AM) If Viciedo, Phegley, and Garcia can do what they're capable of next year, this could be a cooking offense. Personally though I'm expecting all 3 of them to strugglle mightily to the point where people here want them all released by June. If Viciedo and Phegley are hitting poorly next year, they should probably be given the boot. Or at the very least you lose your starting job. Thats the reality of this game and the professionals get paid the money they do to decide who can and who can't. You don't have the luxury of giving every single prospect that is in AAA and has a decent year 2 seasons in the majors to prove whether they can / can't hack. Given Hawks bashing of Phegley, I'm going to say the Sox dont' believe they have a catcher of the future on the roster right now. I think they have a back-up catcher and I'll give Pheg's the rest of this year to show improvements and some flashes of being an every day starter. It isn't like if you sign someone like McCann a guy like Phegley (if the Sox think he deserves at bats) wouldn't get opportunities. You'd have the ability to play McCann at 1B/DH and get Pheg's the at bats anyway (while keeping McCann fresh). McCann really would be the perfect signing if he's willing to take a deal of 4 years or less (an Adam Dunn type of deal...with hopefully better results). Hell...if you added him and Morales that would be two bats you could easily plug into the lineup that would be serious upgrades (while still giving plenty of at bats to Garcia, Viciedo, etc...still having an opening for Semien to get AB's).

I wonder if the Sox would be willing to eat a decent chunk of this contract to make something happen. Personally I wouldn't move Dunn unless I got some talent in return. A pure salary dump with him doesn't give us any value and without Dunn we'd have even more positions the club would need to fill. I'm totally open to moving him but if he cleared waivers I doubt anyone is going to give the Sox what it will take for it to be worthwhile for the Sox to move Dunn this year.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 10, 2013 -> 11:16 AM) The question the Sox brass is going to have to decide is whether or not they're going to commit to the young guys we have. I can't decide that for them. Phegley showed a ton of promise in Charlotte this year, with where they're at I'd hand the position to him even if McCann is out there, but you're 100% right that they shouldn't be willing to totally waste next year's staff. Ultimately that is going to be a major part in what drives Hahn's overall success. It will be his ability (and the organization's) ability to be able to decipher who has the ability and tools to ultimately succeed at the major league level and who doesn't. Its one thing to scout kids and get draft picks but the next big step is both the player development side and the major league scouting side where you ultimately determine whether a guy can / can't make it. Sox have been very successful from a pitching perspective and it seems like they may have figured out Gordon (which would be huge). In fact, as much as people complain about our current hitting coach he really did help Dunn, Rios, and Beckham.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Aug 10, 2013 -> 04:58 AM) So Beck struck out some dudes for once. In AA no less. I hope to see more of that because his K numbers in W-S were pretty woeful. I don't get too worked up on those numbers with Beck. The Sox are working with him on becoming a pitcher and part of that might be him throwing and working on more pitchers earlier in the count and getting guys out with good location. I don't know that to be the case but the Sox have put in a lot of work with Beck and with the stuff he possess, I wouldn't be surprised to see his K/9 pick up in time. I like the fact that he's learning how to pitch.

Garcia's has far better defensive tools then Sanchez. Both are solid guys to have in the system and have the ability to make an impact on a major league team which is great. The fact that Garcia profiles to be an above average defender at 3 infield positions and with work could even be an above average defensive center fielder, that is great. He also has great speed and solid bat speed. Maybe he will learn to hit better but his glove gives him a pretty good chance to have at a minimum an extended and valuable career off the bench. If he can learn to use the stick and really hit the ball to all fields and improve his plate discipline with time he could turn into a starter. I love the fact that he's fast as s***, can field, and has a hose. If he had a better hit tool we wouldn't have been getting him for Rios. But maybe he can develop it.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 10, 2013 -> 10:40 AM) The way I see this offense...they're in a position where if somehow, "Everyone did what they're supposed to do" next year, including 3-4 young guys, they would be sitting there on one gaping hole and that's 1b. The OF bench is pretty bad too with D2 as the guy there, so Granderson does make some sense, but if everyone did what they're supposed to do, including Phegley, Viciedo, and Garcia, they could have a legit offense again next year if they fill the gaping hole at 1b. I am not about to hand over the reigns to the catcher spot for next year when a guy like McCann is out there. If at the end of the year Phegley has shown signs, then sure, I might consider it, but he isn't as good enough prospect to just hand the job over to for a year. If you want to waste next years staff then thats fine and maybe that is the plan but if we all think the pitching staff is as good as it has been this year then it would be a complete atrocity to not try and rebuild this offense and it will take 3 new starters to help do it and by adding those 3 positions you aren't taking at bats away from any meaningful prospect.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 07:30 PM) Keep him up and let him work with Cooper the rest of the way, like someone mentioned earlier in this thread. Completely agree with that.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 06:16 PM) I like Leesman's stuff enough to think he has a job. His two at bats against Morneau show he has value to a big league team. I'm not sure he has a lot though. His fastball control is poor. His value is in the pen and he has to improve his command. He has big league stuff and probably doesn't have to be a loogy, but he's got strides to make if he's going to stick long-term and succeed.

Best wishes Alex. You never deserved all the hate you got and you were as a whole a good player with the Sox.

Catcher, DH/1B, and OF would be my priorities from a position perspective. You have guys that you could potentially get that are good players that can be above league average at their position and you sign whichever of those guys potentially sit out on the market and are willing to take shorter term deals. Kendry Morales as a 2 to 3 yr deal isn't bad. Curtis Granderson isn't bad at 2-3 years and if you want to splurge you splurge on McCann. Add those three bats and the offense is significantly better and you aren't really hindering the growth of any of your good prospects/young players. Semien, Beckham, Garcia, Vicied all are playing. If you don't end up competing, those guys you signed didn't break the bank (except McCann) and can probably be moved to a contender. Now I just named a few guys above and I don't know who will sit out on FA and end up taking a shorter term deal but if I were the Sox I'd trade/sign 3 starting position players.

Ian...aka...Mr Showtime!!!

One other thing...I think you can find a bat in a corner spot easier then we think (potentially). Biggest problem with the Sox offense is a major lack of OBP (plus average). Rios is solid with the average but his OBP will never ever be anything special and spending $14M on that is tough given how s***ty our teams ability to get on base. Note: Sadly, Rios is one of the better ones we have but If he had a bad attitude (I think he gets hated on more then he deserves) then I can live with this. Like Balta, the one thing that gives me confidence of the future is our cost controller rotation (sans the expensive Danks).

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 11:23 AM) And like someone said a few minutes ago, we found someone to take Rios and his entire contract minus $1 million. It's definitely a salary dump of a player that the organization seems to hate now. The $1M going to the Rangers tells me it isn't quite a salary dump. I wouldn't pay $1M for some run of the mil prospect. Only way I'm doing that is if I get someone with some upside. Garcia very well could fit that bill depending on what the White Sox think his upside is (maybe they think his bat would grow and that he can play at short...I don't know).

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 11:21 AM) Now imagine if some team got desperate enough to trade for Dunn. Hopefully the Sox have a nice 1-3 year plan to add back some of that payroll. They clearly won't do it all at once cause that would be crazy. Plus, we've seen from the Angels and some other teams that going crazy doesn't always equate itself to wins. Too bad this flexibility didn't come a year ago...maybe we'd have gone crazy and lucked into Puig haha.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 11:21 AM) If it is Garcia, it actually does sorta make sense, he's a guy who could fit into the Sox right away, he's on Texas's roster right now so he can't be traded, he does have some tools, he's very young, and hopefully he helps out next year's bench a ton. I could live with that. Not sure about his arm but supposedly he can play shortstop as well. Supposed to be a slick fielder with great speed.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 11:19 AM) Dan Hayes and others still seem to think that the PTBNL will be Garcia. Is there any chance that the PTBNL has anything to do with the pool of players the Cubs are looking at? Could that be why we have to wait? If the player in the deal is on the 40 man roster, then the way you get around them clearing waivers is by using them as a PTBNL. In which case, we won't find out (officially) who it is until after the season. Another option would be the Sox have been given a list of players and they can do a little more scouting to finalize. If Heyman is right and the Sox sent $1M to the Rangers, then at a minimum the Sox paid $1M for a prospect (since the alternative would have just been telling the Rangers you could have Rios) so I wouldn't think we'd be getting just some bum. Whomever we are getting has a perceived value from the White Sox of $1M (if Heyman's report is true).