Chisoxfn

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 03:30 PM) You are full of s***, just admit it. In basketball, talent evaluations are made all the time without the basis of money. Your first analysis was totally based off of talent solely focused on free throw shooting, and now you are claiming it's only due to money. You are mitt romney. Who gives a s*** about the money. Worse case he's a 15M expiring which in and of itself has massive value if the Bulls are over the cap and want to add additional assets. I realize the luxury tax might be an issue but in reality, the luxury tax doesn't exactly prevent the Bulls from signing players, etc. They would still be significantly over the cap. And if they want to clear money for 2014, I fully believe the Bulls could move Asik's contract. If they have another strategy, well they still have an asset that can be used to match salaries, etc, which is pretty key in the NBA. And whether it is 6 months or next off-season, I don't really care too much. That still is in plenty of time to prepare for the 2013 season, which is the more important season anyway. I don't get all that hyped about 2014 since there aren't even any good FA's that year that help the Bulls. I've long argued Bulls should go for broke for Dwight.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 03:28 PM) I just can not believe this argument. At least Zoom understands so I have that going for me. For comparison here is Joel Anthony's contract; http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/jul/2...anthony-072310/ 5 years 18mil. If the Bulls could sign Asik for that, Id do it every day of the week. The current offer the bulls have to match is: 3 years 25 mil I just assume that the people in this thread know sports and know that Asik is going to cost more than 2x the amount of Anthony. So you cant say "Oh well hed improve the Heat at the expense of Anthony" because the salaries dont match. As a UFA, I would not be surprised to see Asik get significantly more then 3yrs 25M.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 03:19 PM) NO I WAS NOT. ASIK IS NOT FREE WE CAN NOT LIVE IN FANTASY LAND. I ASSUMED THAT EVERYONE UNDERSTOOD ASIK HAS TO BE PAID TO PLAY. Sorry I didnt make that clear, this is literally become the dumbest argument Ive had today, and I argue with stupid people for a living. Coming from the guy who thinks Thibbs should be fired and that Rose's injury is 95% on him, well, that doesn't say much. The point is, given the overall market, Asik isn't going to be ridiculously overpaid. As a UFA he probably gets paid more on average over the contract, however, the CBA prevented teams from offering more. What did the Rockets too, they back loaded it with one large deal but the overall average contract is probably consistent (if not less) then he would get as a UFA, which means, there is potential value to trade him a year from now, in which case, the contract really doesn't matter much (it isn't like the Bulls can spend the money elsewhere, so by matching him they at least get the benefit of trading him for a TPE or draft pick or something else so that they don't waste the asset).

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 03:20 PM) He doesn't convert at a high percentage. He only made 52% of his shots in the basket area this year, which is the kind of number that you typically see from a 6'1" point guard. The guy is absolutely awful on offense. But the point is, as a 5th option, that sort of percentage is just fine, and as a whole, if your strategy is to leave him open, 52% of your shots is still > the average shooting percentage in the league (excessively) so I don't really see how it is a good strategy to keep fouling him and or letting him have dunks. Seems pretty foolish to me. On a sidenote, if you are playing the Heat, you are going to be doubling Lebron a lot no matter what (irregardless of who your center is) but no team has 5 legitimate offensive options and defensively, they'd be a lot better with a guy like Asik who could just shut down the paint.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 03:14 PM) The Bulls were 8 points worse per 100 possessions on offense when Asik was on the floor this year, and Noah isn't exactly Wilt Chamberlain. You can absolutely cheat off him and make sure a person that can actually do something with the ball if they catch it doesn't beat you. And on the flip side, they were significantly better defensively with him on the court, to the point where he was a net gain. I've never said he's a great offensive player. I've said that on the right teams he's a good fit and as a whole he's a great bench center. I also think given the market for centers, you wouldn't have much difficulty trading him 6 months from now.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 03:10 PM) How many times has Asik been under the hoop and stone handed a pass? Hes just not reliable on offense. When the Bulls have Asik on the floor, id say 80% of possessions have his man doubling someone else. Yes, they are 30 other centers in this league that are better then him. You are correct. Most centers in this league can't score and are butterfingers. No one is saying he's Bynum. The dude would start on quite a few teams in this league and is a very capable player (despite the fact that Pop would just use a crushing defensive strategy against him). Even if he dropped half of the passes, he's still getting dunks and converting at a high percentage. Plus, if teams just leave him, then he's got position for offensive boards.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 03:07 PM) No that was just 1 part of the reasoning. I never said it was the only reason. The other reason is that on offense you can play off asik, meaning that its effectively 4-5. You cant do that with Griffin. You really can't. He's going to be out setting picks and doing other things. It really isn't a 4-5 game and if you really go away, you'll get a lot of dunks when he's under the hoop.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 03:01 PM) What are you talking about? The Heat won the NBA Championship and basically didnt have a true center. You are so far outside the realm of any discussion I cant even understand your point. The comment was regarding whether ASIK would make the HEAT better. And I said he would not, as Asik is a bad offensive player and could be fouled to actually hurt their offensive numbers. Do you have anything to say about the actual discussion? Or are you just posting random nonsense because you dont know the NBA rules? And you could have fouled Joel Anthony too. Asik would have been a massive upgrade. You know how good the Heat's defense would have been with Asik controlling the paint and offensively he would have set some massive screens for LBJ/Wade, which also would create space for Bosh. You are delusional if you don't think Asik would make the Heat a lot better. He's the exact type of player they are missing (a legitimately strong defensive center).

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 03:02 PM) No the comment was about whether Asik on the Heat would make them better. Blake Griffin is a million times better on offense than Asik, I dont even know what you are talking about. Might be better on offense, but your point was based upon free throws and just fouling and fouling a bad free throw shooter. So in that regard, the situation really isn't different.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 02:59 PM) It may be. But the Bulls lost a game because Asik was on the court, was fouled and didnt make his free throws. Bad free throw shooting is just something that cant be ignored. If asik could shoot even a respectable percentage, hed probably be worth the contract. Dude, that wasn't a strategy. That was a foul as the clock expired. That is what you are coached to do regardless of who the free throw shooter was. And given the situation, it was a dumb play by Watson. Had Watson made the right decision, he would have been fouled and the good free throw shooter shoots free throws. All I can say is, you are in the vast majority and you can have your opinion, but letting Thibbs become a FA as a coach would be a major mistake and it would cost the Bulls a lot of money (and possibly one of the best coaches in the league). And I'm not sure what is frustrating. Bulls have made a lot of really good in-game adjustments and are very very prepared.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 02:55 PM) You do know Popovich (whom I consider one of the 2 best coaches) employed this strategy last season pretty successfully. It may be ludicrous, but when arguably the best coach in the NBA is doing in the playoffs, you have to at least recognize at as a strategy. The strategy was used briefly, it ultimately wasn't the reason that they won. And yes, I'm fully aware and I'm also fully aware that by and large, it isn't going to help you. That strategy wasn't the difference in them winning or losing that series. And mathematically, the strategy is garbage. Sometimes it might make sense as an adjustment to throw a team off, but long term, it is a garbage strategy.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 02:51 PM) I believe that when you sign a contract there is no bad faith in not renegotiating it early. Thibs signed the agreement, the fact is, not many other teams wanted him as a Head Coach. So you would think he may have some loyalty to the Bulls, being the team who gave him the break in the first place. Why does the team always have to show faith to the Coach? Thibs signed an agreement, the Bulls are paying him. If he didnt like it, he shouldnt have signed in the first place. I just think the Bulls should keep their options open. This is a great season to really see what Thibs can do as a coach. Lets see what offense he can run without Rose. Many coaches have looked amazing because theyve had a MVP player. Because if Thibs were a FA, you'd have a ton of teams bidding major money to land him. He'd feel the Bulls weren't loyal and very well might leave, which means the Bulls are looking to hire from anew. The dude has done a hell of a job and is one of the best basketball minds in the league and one of the best head coaches in the league. Probably the 2nd or 3rd best current coach in the NBA. Personally I think he's better then Doc, but thats just me. I guarantee the Lakers would have offered a fortune to Thibs if he was a FA a year ago when they instead hired Mike Brown. You are living in your own world when it comes to Thibs. Your evaluation doesn't compare to most in the games evaluation. Lets also add in the fact that the players have fully bought into him. Basketball expert after expert has commented on how well the Bulls play the game. Do you think that has nothing to do with how excellent our coach is? I'm sorry he didn't win a title in his 1st year as coach with a 22 year old point guard and largely a new team when he went up against an experienced team which included LBJ, Bosh, and Wade (3 of which are better then any other player on the Bulls not named Rose).

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 02:34 PM) I assume this your admission you have no clue about the NBA or the rules. You simply stated something thats not true, Asik can be fouled without the ball. Popovich has done this in games, http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1201339...on-and-analysis Player includes both offense and defense. In my opinion Taj is a better player than Boozer. He already is going to be asking for a fortune, there is also the chance that no one offers him more money than what the Bulls are currently offering. No way to tell his value unless its on the open market. I never said I wanted him fired, because I never wanted him fired. Next year will be his 3rd year, I will be giving Thibs 3 years to prove himself. How is that no room for error? And in the 1st two years he's been phenomenal.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 02:38 PM) There are 12 minutes in a quarter. 24 seconds per possession. Lets say 30 seconds per 2 (as we are fouling). That is 48 possessions per quarter, 24 being on defense. You would need 96 fouls to accomplish fouling Asik every time down the court. If you have a team of 10 players that is 60 fouls to use. Hence why Popovich, the smartest coach in the game, came up with the strategy. Its mathematically brilliant. My math was wrong, it cant be done every possession if they are averaging 4 possessions per minute. If they are averaging 2-3 possessions per minute it can be done. Ya. And you aren't sending him to the line until you go over the limit. So instead, you are proposing that you immediately put your team in the bonus position and then if you want to, as a team, you could counter and pull Asik (if you really think they are going to keep fouling you and even then I'd argue, let em keep fouling cause pretty soon they won't have anyone on the roster) and play in the bonus for the rest of the quarter (knowing you are going to get to the line a lot if you play aggressive. Pretty sure Wade or LBJ or Rose or those type of players would have any issues getting to the line 30 times a night if you are essentially guaranteeing they are in the bonus for the majority of every quarter. To be frank, this is a ludicrous strategy. If that was the case, why weren't teams fouling Shaq the whole game consistently. In fact, I think there were a lot of statisticians who said the hack a shaq was a horrible mathematical/statistic approach (even though he was an awful foul shooter too).

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 02:24 PM) Why would you extend Thibs early? Hes under contract, no real incentive. To prevent distractions. To show him you are committed to him being our guy. To ensure that he doesn't leave when he is a FA. Thibs is one of the best coaches in the league and the Bulls would be crazy not to keep him around.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 02:17 PM) Getting rid of Asik, Korver, Boozer, Deng is not blowing up the Bulls. Its reformulating the Bulls into a team that can win a Championship. Blowing up the Bulls would be trading Derrick Rose/Noah and Taj, and quite frankly I really dont see anyone arguing the Bulls should do that. Its not panic, I believe the Bulls should be on a 3 year plan. That is the exact opposite of panic, that is patience. Deng is a better player then you give him credit to and a huge part of the core. I'm all for making moves, but they have to be designed to put the Bulls in a better spot.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 01:59 PM) You dont watch basketball then, You can foul away from the ball up until 2 minutes left. Watch the Spurs with Popovich. This is why no one should take you seriously, you dont watch NBA basketball. Okay. So the team is in foul trouble early on. The early fouls don't even put Asik to the line, but the team gets in the bonus, and the team is going to get to the line a lot and the other team is going to have a hard time putting out a roster.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 01:58 PM) The chemistry offensively between boozer and noah was vastly improved this year. The playcalling for boozer was way way way better. Rose got hurt. That's what happened. Sorry! I know it sucks! but things happen in life! Bulls win the title at 100%. I can't guarantee that but I'm confident that would have been the case this year.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 12:29 PM) I just hope they have a plan. I totally understand the 2012-2013 season. They know its lost, and they don't want to spend the money on veterans for nothing. That makes sense to me. BUT, what do you do with the team when Rose does come back? If you expect him to be superman and carry the entire team, with the Heat, Nets, and whoever else, that isn't going to work Meh, Nets aren't that good. The reality is, the Bulls (with a healthy Rose) are still the 2nd best team in the East.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 12:27 PM) Celtics got Greg Stiemsma for basically 0. His per was 13.62 last year (Asik's was 13.44) The problem with the NBA is that if the guy isnt well scouted in college, many NBA teams just wont even look at them. With Asik's lack of improvement on the offensive end, there is just no way to justify this contract. There are a handful of NCAA players each year who are 7 feet or so that arent even drafted, who can just be a body in the middle. And none of those guys are the elite defensive center/rebounder that Asik is. If Asik was on the Heat, wow, they'd dominate. He's a solid starter on the right team.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 12:23 PM) I get the notion that the Bulls feel like they have invested so much time into him, that they don't want to see him blossum somewhere else, but it just doesn't make sense to me, especially with Taj coming up for a contract. You can still trade Asik 6 months from now to a team that wants a big. Yes, the cap hit is bad in that final year, but a team still gets him for on average about 8-9M per year, which isn't horrible.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 13, 2012 -> 11:58 AM) Rose did not play well in any game besides the 1st game in that Heat series. So to paraphrase his struggles as "putting Lebron on him" is a vast oversimplification and gives far too much credit to Lebron. Look at his series stats, he went 7-23 in game 2. He went 8-27 in game 4. He went 9 for 29 in game 5. Lebron was on him, what, maybe 3 or 4 minutes TOTAL in the whole series? And only at the end of games? Rose's struggles had more to do with him playing on a bum ankle in that series (and being physically exhausted from carrying the squad) then LBJ's defense. And this isn't a knock on LBJ's defense, more pointing out the facts related to Rose's struggles in that series.

Wow. I would love to get Forte to a fair deal (for both sides).

QUOTE (oldsox @ Jul 12, 2012 -> 07:19 AM) I don't understand having Chris Beck waaay ahead of Heidenreich. Same age, one a second rounder, the other a fourth, Beck getting pretty much lit up at Great Falls, Heidenreich solid now at High A (combined 101 innings/3.38 ERA/.244 BAA/pitching against older players). Seems like Beck is annoited hhis status. Beck was a consensus top 10 pick prior to bulking up and losing a bit of mobility, which cost him some velocity and ultimately his overall draft status. Lot of upside with this pick. Heiden is young, has put up good numbers, however, his overall stuff is relatively fringy. He is a lefty and he has seen some increases in velocity since joining the system (which is a plus). I tend to think FS as a whole thinks lesser of Heiden than it probably should, however, I can easily see why it is hard to get excited about him when you consider his stuff (he does possess a good sinking fastball).

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 12, 2012 -> 04:56 AM) I agree with you, as I am also a ceiling guy when evaluating upside in the system, but I don't have Danks and Axelrod on my personal list cause they are just too old to be considered legitimate prospects in my eyes. Obviously I have bias on guys I've watched or know (Dan Black.. ) but I'm also a realist. I feel that way about Axelrod, but not about Danks. Danks has made a lot of strides and has a lot of tools. Yes, he's old, but he's done a nice job off the bench and part of me thinks we'd be pleasantly surprised if he ever became a starter.