GreenSox

I don't see how Walker can keep his job. Maybe it isn't his fault (talent isn't the best; organizational philosophy, etcl) - but someone's got to be responsible for the bottom line. Shut out by a mediocre pitcher.

QUOTE(striker62704 @ Jun 10, 2007 -> 03:07 PM) I have to disagree with you. The closer you get to July 31st, the more teams that will be out of the race. Demand goes down, price goes down. Plus, teams would probably give more for a rental player for 3 months than for 2 months. Dye and Iguchi are the only players I see us moving. I think Terrero could replace Dye. Not necssarily '06 Dye, but any other season. I agree - as time passes, there are more sellers and fewer buyers. Also, the sooner you trade a player, the more games he gets to help his new club, which means the new club will pay more for him. On the other hand, right at the deadline, desparate teams do desparate things and you can really make a killing if you get lucky.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 10, 2007 -> 03:44 PM) I pray this is deep, thick sarcasm. I would think not. Dye is worth a lot more than a middle reliever.

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 9, 2007 -> 12:48 AM) But lesser of four evils or "maybe not worse than" doesn't get you much, at best, a .500 ballclub. I guess Anderson has now become the poster child (like Rowand) for "what ifs," and I'm not buying it. The same people who think we would be contending with Rowand instead of Thome are probably arguing Ozzie's "vendetta" against Anderson is killing the organization. The problem with all the anti-Anderson stuff is 1) KW is either complicit in it, 2) KW has no balls to go against Guillen's wishes for the ballclub...3) KW and OG are on the same page, for better or worse, despite what everyone here thinks and wishes. Or 4) there is a real rift between KW and OG and we just don't know about it. The argument for Anderson is not that he will bring better production. He probably won't. It's that he's young and might turn out to be a really good player. That's better than guaranteed mediocrity (although Rob M and the rest aren't even delivering mediocrity; and what is Cintron even doing on the team?). Rob M at leadoff; bunting to put the pressure of tying the game on a rookie and Rob M - the Sox sure aren't getting much help from the baintrust either.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jun 9, 2007 -> 09:19 AM) I completely agree with you but if GIO is truly a #2 guy like everyone on this board says he is, then didn't he get the max for him? You figure a #2 lefty (which I don't beleive) and a past #1 pick (who I think sucks) was pretty good for a guy who lost velocity and will want a 5 year deal next year. Now you and I most likley agree that what we got in return for freddie actaully sucked but the majority of the kids on this board Love the great GIO. Is he a number 2? If so, and if Floyd is a top prospect, we got a steal. I've been waiting for Floyd to come up - why not? I can see leaving Gio down, but unless Floyd's hurt, why not? As for Floyd, of course Kenny wouldn't make a deal unless he thought it a good deal - and that would mean that he thought highly of Floyd. But Floyd was damaged goods and wouldn't command a top prospect price. Hopefully, he will he become a major league pitcher. So we have Rowand, Garcia and a prospect for Thome and Floyd. Assuming that we just don't re-sign MB and Dye, are we going to get a first round draft choice for each in compensation? I know compensation to some extent depends on whether they are class A FAs (which I assume they are, although some real mediocre ballplayers have been class As) (that's almost the deal, not quite as the years are different, but almost). Looks pretty reasonable, overall. Would look even better if Floyd could pitch major league baseball.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 9, 2007 -> 08:48 AM) If Durham was a salary dump, why did KW pick up the biggest portion of his remaining contract that the rules allow? He thought Adkins was a stud. I really don't think he thought Atkins was a stud. I think he didn't know what he was doing and for some reason was hell-bent on dumping Durham (although as you said, not for salary dumping purposes). He also seemed to have convinced himself that Durham had little market value - Remember him saying to the media all that stuff about how there is no market for dumping players (something about the rules on compensation changing). He trusted Beane during that period, which is never a good idea, so he got snookered, plain and simple. Even look at last winter- did he get maximum return in young talent for Freddie Garcia?

1)Leadoff hitter 2)Run producer to replace Dye

None of Sweeney, Fields or Owens was ready this year and the Sox knew they weren't ready. It's unfortunate that they had to be called up this year. Owens obviously has a fairly low ceiling, is a LF, but if he works hard (including learning how to take a walk for goodness sakes - I doubt he'll learn or develop that skill in this organization) he could be a Pods type. Sweeney could be a really good hitter - what is he now, 22? Anderson had a decent 2nd half last year, a good spring and plays stellar defense. That wasn't good enough for Ozzie to stick in the 9 hole and leave alone. Regardless of whose fault it is, Anderson's value is significantly depressed, so his future better be with the Sox because we won't get much for him if we traded him.

There is zero chance that Williams is fired. Williams hasn't been the most adept dumper of veterans in July. He hasn't done it often, but, as I recall, he basically gave Durham, Lofton, Howry and Baldwin away...didn't get any serious talent on paper or otherwise for any of those guys.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 8, 2007 -> 10:22 PM) The thought that Girardi was anything but an abominable manager last year is maybe the most incredible farse I've ever seen portrayed in baseball since I've watched it. Why do you say that? I don't know anything about him, except that W/L wise, the Marlins did a lot better than most expected. Just wondering what his story is.

In Owens, we have a lead off hitter who is still looking for his first major league walk. Now I realize that the circumstances are different, but Ozzie wouldn't let Anderson start and hit in the 9 hole for 2 straight days last year, much less 2 straight weeks. I think Owens will be a decent little player, with some coaching and experience. This team will hack away at just about any pitch. It's remarkable how little patience these hitters have. I love AJ slapping at ball 4, straight into a double play. The team is bad because the roster is bad. That's partially Ozzie's fault, imo, but also injuries and Williams. I just hope Ozzie and Walker are spending time working with the young hitters and improving them.

I don't know what the July trade market will be for rents, but let's pray it's strong for the lessors because that could help su take care of other problems. As it is, we have a pretty good starting staff. Now we need to start hyping some of our AA and AAA pitchers to unload them for legitimate AA and AAA hitters on other teams.

QUOTE(briguy27 @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 03:03 PM) how about this lineup for 2008 ichiro CF eckstein 2B thome DH konerko 1B pierzynski C vizquel SS fields 3B sweeney LF terrero RF Scary bad. And scarier defensively. Is Eckstein really an upgrade over Iguchi?

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 05:27 PM) This post is the biggest bunch of B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T I have read today. When did Ozzie make it seem like he likes the players you suggested? Walker always talks about players hitting it back up the middle and not worry about homeruns because they will come. Everyone likes high OBP guys and hitters with patience. This may be the most moronic post of the century. Either that or it is a bunch of sarcasm that can not be detected. Oh, yea, Ozzie's a big believer in plate patience and taking walks and waiting for a ball that you can hit. What a howler that is. And you call my post BS? The "evidence" you provide is walker saying he wants players that can hit up the middle. There's a big difference between not swinging for the fences and plate patience. On the other hand, this staff has: drooled over free-swinging Erstad and labelling Erstad a .400 quality hitter when he was hitting below .200. When he uses Alex Cintron as a pinch-hitter. When he loads the team up with free swingers. If they believed in patience wouldn't at least ONE of the slap hitters take walks. You'd think, but none do under this staff. Do you see hitters taking walks when Guillen and Walker coach them? Do you ever see Guillen criticiizing a player (which he loves to do in general) for swinging at everything. The Sox aren't alone. The Angels aren't an OBP team either and they've had success. The Sox won a WS with free swingers. You can do it if you get good hitting free swingers. Right now, we feature Rob M., two rookies, and Alex Cintron as pinch hitter (and a cold rest of the team). THAT is the problem.

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 07:12 AM) I think these "homer or bust/push-pull" teams are more a creation of KW and this annoying theory that White Sox fans have always preferred home runs and .500 teams to "small ball" and playoff contenders...or maybe, it's the idea that if the majority of teams are going to be "average," it's best to entertain them with offense instead of defense? At any rate, I think Ozzie knows the writing is on the wall with this team (the current version) and he is disengaging a little bit, which coincides with our second half slide and first half fizzle this year. And I think the whole Mariotti flap really changed him too, for the worse. I think it's more Ozzie - Ozzie likes free swingers, including, if not especially, those with no power. Ozzie was a free swinger with no power and Ozzie considers Ozzie to have been a good hitter (he was a well below-average hitter). Ozzie doesn't like the walkers, he likes the slap hitters. That's what we've got a team full of - hitters that swing at everything. And I see no evidence that Ozzie or Walker is interested in more OBP or plate patience. That said, I think this roster, when healthy, is not championship quality. So, there's only so much Ozzie can do. BUT I think Kenny gets the players that fit Ozzie's philosophy.

QUOTE(LVSoxFan @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 03:51 PM) He can't bunt or hit for percentage. Why in the world would you want Thome bunting? Rowand is a horrible bunter, FWIW. That said, I think it's an interesting question: Freddie Garcia (1 year later), Aaron Rowand and a Prospect (whose name escapes me) for Jim Thome and Gavin Floyd (1 year later). Good trade or bad trade?

The philosophy of Ozzie Guillen, as excecuted by Williams. Ozzie thinks Ozzie was a good hitter.

QUOTE(whitesox07champs @ Jun 1, 2007 -> 11:23 PM) Dusty did a bad job with the cubs but I believe that bringing him with the white sox would give this team the lift it needs! We'd just as soon bring back Bevington. And for sure I'd prefer Jerry Manuel.

Another problem is the change in organizational philosophy which has been implemented to a much greater extent now than it was 2 years ago. What is the genesis of the orgranizational philosophy of a)speed of fastball being the top credential for a pitcher and b)free swingers greatly preferred over hitters with plate discipline. I think that's all Ozzie and Kenny is getting players that Ozzie likes. Williams hasn't done the best job the last 2 years filling holes; BUT the "Swing at everything" offensive philosophy and judging pitchers on fastball speed (which is why I doubt they re-sign MB) is also fault.

Any trade that includes Winn, Vizquel, Durham, Russ Ortiz or any other AARP member would be, well, bad.

Absolutely not - Abreu blows and he's always worse than his numbers. We need better rumors! Abreu, some old man from the Giants like Winn or Visquel....we need young talent.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:54 PM) CF is a HUGE improvement from last year. He is actually one of the best hitters on our team this year. That is not saying much, but it's true. It certainly is not a defensive improvement. And it looks like more of an offensive improvement than it really is because everyone else is hitting so miserably. So we take Erstad and his zero power and .310 OBP, instead of taking a risk on a young player. That's a poor decision, imo, because Erstad is so mediocre that is easily worth the risk to play a young player. As it is, Anderson improved in 2006, outplayed Erstad in the spring - but he isn't an ozzie-style player that hacks away at every pitch. And it doesn't even have to be Anderson - play Sweeney, play Fields, play Owens...someone with potential. It sure beats the guaranteed mediocrity of erstad.

Keep in mind that this is the BP who has the Cubs ranked #4 in their power ratings dated 5/11/07.

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:46 PM) Great at identifying undervalued major league players....horrible at finding AA and AAA talent, with the one exception being the slight chance he took on Bobby Jenks and picking up Jerry Owens from the Nationals for Alex Escobar. If you look at 2002, you remember names like Barry/Berry, Felix Diaz, Jon Adkins, Onan Masaoka, Gary Majewski, the immortal Byeon Hak-An and Frank Francisco. The two "stars" were Diaz and Adkins, and they disappointed mightily. Francisco and Majewski would have been nice bullpen pieces had we kept them. In fact, we might have won in 2003 if Francisco was the closer for the entire season, instead of Koch. But he wasn't quite ready then, nor had he thrown any chairs or suffered a major injury. The most talented AA/AAA players he's given up would have been "bullpen pieces" - that's pretty good. Dont' forget how Kenny GOT Francisco in the first place....and Cotts....and Danks..... (the exception likely will be Chris Young). We've got some AAA/AA pitchers...we need to package them for AAA/AA hitters The Sox aren't selling off. Our pitching is too good for us NOT to be in the race..

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ May 7, 2007 -> 03:11 PM) The success of the A's for many years has been based on maximizing the performance they get out of guys, and then trading them to teams who will overpay for them, only to see the guy they got regress to the means (SEE: Mulder for Calero and Haren for example). In fact, they do it well in cases like Frank Thomas, Chad Bradford, etc as well in cases without trades. That is the true essence of moneyball, far more than on base percentage (although that is important too). It's like constantly trading down in the draft, trading down in the draft. Ultimately, you'll end up with 32 choices in this and next year's 7th round. Prospects dont' win titles - what prospects become wins titles. So at some point, yoiu have to let them mature and risk perhaps keeping them on the downside. At some point it's overkill. And spending 10Mill a year on Jason Kendall, a high proportion of their budget, is a dubious choice.. He's one 1 playoff series, but has a consistently good team. Shapiro is looking for his first playoff club. The guy in LA was a disaster, zip from Toronto. As for a fire sale, people don't pay much for rents of, say, Dye. We could probably move a starter or reliever for something decent. BUt what we really neeed are a couple of bats. We've got good pitching and good defense. And I think our pitching remains the best in the Central, overall, and I therefore think we'll remain in the race, albeit on the fringes.