Jordan4life_2007

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 03:10 PM) That is exactly how I feel about it. It helps the team in 2011, but it hurts them in 2012 and on when Sale isn't ready to start. Being a starting pitcher is akin to being a marathon runner. Just because you can run a nice 100 meter time, doesn't mean you can do that for 26.2 miles. You have to build up and condition yourself to get up to that distance. Going 200 innings in a year is the same way. If you are conditioned for it, you are going to do your body more harm than good if you just try to go out and run a marathon without being prepared for it. Wow, this shocks me coming from you. I totally agree with everything you said.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 03:22 PM) His splits in 2010 are pretty similar, except June, July and August is when he shined, although June he sported a nice ERA but his WHIP was horrid. A lot of walks but they easily could be intentional. July and August, he made himself millions. Obviously, going month to month with relievers isn't an exact science as its only about 11 or 12 innings a month. I was in Minneapolis in July and can tell you Twins fans held Crain in the exact same regard Linebrink was held around here. They expected bad things to happen when he entered the game. Maybe he's turned it around, or maybe he put together a pretty sweet salary drive. Bobby Jenks has been better than Jesse Crain by every conceivable measure for most of the last 4 years and we couldn't wait to get rid of him. I know there's the money aspect but still.

You know what, I'm going to take the high road here. Tex, my apologies if you didn't mean this as a bait thread. I'm just getting sick of not being able to express my opinion, good or bad, without being viewed as some evil demon. I'll admit I'm not the same always optimistic poster I was 3-4 years ago. But I'm almost 28 now and I view things differently than I did when I was 21-22. But anyway, again, my bad. Let this thread evolve into a positive one.

QUOTE (TomPickle @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 03:10 PM) Riiight, because this is all some big conspiracy against you... QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 03:13 PM) Gang-Raped? Jeesh, J4L, don't you think you're flattering yourself a bit? Yes, it really boosts my self-esteem. I can't say s*** anymore that doesn't involve me kissing the White Sox collective asses without multiple people saying I'm bad and mean. I gave the Sox offseason grade a B minus and at least 4 people acted like I was insane. At least read some of these threads before you act like I'm pulling this s*** out my ass.

GMAB, Tex. I've been getting gang-raped because I didn't give this offseason a sparkling, shiny A plus. I'm sure you've seen this. Then you create this thread?

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 02:36 PM) You've seen how all these lengthy contracts are given out to relievers this year. A good reliever usually ends up producing less value than what he is paid on the open market. It wouldn't be the worst idea to groom relievers from the draft. Now granted, they probably shouldn't be the 14th pick in any draft, but it's not the end of the world if you get 1.5 WAR a year from that pick for 6 years and pay him somewhere around $25 million throughout those years. Now of course, I would want Sale to be a starter since that maximizes his value and that is the ultimate point. However, you also have to consider his physical condition. I think the case with Sale is a little different than with other guys like Papelbon or Chamberlain. Those guys were physically ready to handle 200 innings. Chris Sale looks like he has anorexia. It wouldn't hurt to ease him into the Majors. He pitched 23 innings last year. I bet those 23 innings took more of a toll on him than any other 23 innings he's pitched in his career. ML innings put extra stress on the arm, just look at what happened to Strasburg. He pitched for years without arm problems, but couldn't handle 75 innings in the Majors before getting hurt. I'm kind of in between. I wouldn't mind it if he started and I wouldn't mind it if he relieved. However, I think the latter option is the safer route in the long run and it also does stabilize the bullpen a lot more in the short term. I'm not questioning the value of a good or dominant reliever. You obviously need them to win. But for any organization, especially a talent-starved organization such as ours, you don't invest pre-mid first round picks on them. There were questions about Sale's frame, durability and violent delivery well before the draft. I would've passed if I wasn't 100 percent or close to 100 percent sure he could cut it as a starter. It's funny. The one year we should've probably played it safe after years of failures of playing it safe is the year we actually appear to be going high upside.

QUOTE (Tex @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 02:39 PM) No bait, I am really looking forward to opening day, much more than I have for any season in recent memory. I'm excited going into every year because I love my team and baseball in general. But this does have the feel of a bait thread. Even if you truly didn't intend it to be that way. Nothing wrong with being excited and at the same time a little skeptical.

I'm not taking the bait.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 02:19 PM) Look at what 3E8 posted. It's not just us, but it's been more of the case with this team since Kenny took over. That's just a loser attitude [not saying you or 3E8 is a loser, obviously]. I don't care about the stats or the history of other teams' first round picks in this case. I'll never except the notion that because just about all of our first round picks have sucked the last decade that it would be acceptable if Sale turned into nothing more than a dominant reliever. Look all around baseball. There's a lot more efficient ways to acquire dominant relievers or closers than to invest pre-mid first round picks on them. I'd rather take a high upside guy at 13 that totally flops than a guy who's destined to be a reliever.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 02:02 PM) Actually, what he's always done has been pretty good. Not very good...everyone has to note that 2009 season. It's been pretty good... every year that he's been healthy other than 2009 he's been very good. He's had two really good years in his career in which he pitched a legitimate amount of innings. 2005 and last year. Now I didn't realize he pitched only 16.1 innings in 2007. So that's my bad. How bad was he hurt in 2009? He still appeared in 56 games. Either way he's been sporadic at best and is exactly the type of reliever you don't hand out 3-year deals to.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 01:43 PM) Sale projects to be a 1.5 WAR reliever with how he pitched last year. It wouldn't be the end of the world if he ends up being that for most of his career. After all, how many first round picks in our team's history have actually panned out? I think that question can go for almost every team. Having Sale start does boost his value, but you're also risking injury at the same time. I don't think it hurts to have him take a smaller load early in his career until he gains some weight. What kinda excuse is that? Because most of our first round picks have sucked that it would be OK if Sale turned into a great set-up man or closer? We may as well just forfeit all of our first-round picks from here on out.

QUOTE (qwerty @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 09:18 AM) I echo j4l... the lack of power off the bench is bothersome... as is the pen. The pen more so than the lack of power of the bench. Too many question marks for my liking when sale is not in the pen, and even when he is, don't color me impressed. The pen shall be the weak link for the sox this season... but will they be bad enough to keep them out of the playoffs? Entirely possible scenario i believe. For some time now the sox pitch their relievers just about as little as any team in the league. Quite simply we have had some sort of a nice luxury. During that time... we have generally had a pretty potent 1-2-3 at the back end... with talented arms sprinkled in to round out the pen. Now? The best arm the sox have is transitioning to closer. Will is matter to thornton mentally? Maybe... maybe not. Thornton got the ball to jenks in situations i am pretty certain the vast majority can't dream of doing on a consistent basis. Another luxury... one of which is assuredly gone. But then again i would take a stud set-up man over a stud closer any day... remember... the game would never get to the closer otherwise. What i mean by this is i would take an elite set-up man and have a slightly worse closer closing out my games... rather than vice versa. I have always believed the best arm in the pen, which is generally the closer, though not always, is utilized incorrectly. I'm not the only one which thinks this way, it's a way more common thought process than you would think. Thornton... i'm pretty confident in... but you just never know how someone will react moving into the closers role. Sale... he will be far and away will be the biggest asset in the pen... once he gets there that is. Without sale... the pen is downright bleak. Santos... unless if something changes control wise... i think he is closer to the pitcher he was the last two months... rather than the first four. People undervalue just how valuable it is when a player has a limited, or in the case of santos, nearly no scouting report at all against. Crain... no problem here... crain should do just about what he has always done. Pena... which pena are we gonna get? If i were to make a wager, i wouldn't say he lives up to what he is capable of, though i just hope he sniffs it. Ohman... he is what he is... a left handed specialist. If they can try and limit ohman to as few right handed hitters as possible.... we will have finally found someone other than thornton that can get lefties out on a consistent basis. Infante... walking batters at the rate he does is not gonna cut it on a team that is contending... maybe on a bottom feeder sort of team they could throw him out there... but i want nothing to do with him. Infante does still have age on his side to get things figured out. Carter... not major league caliber. Spring training invites? Ick (many more times than not). So currently i think we have a total of about three arms we potentially can rely on, and only two until sale gets in there, with a ton of crap shoot mixed in. Btw, i know people don't want to think about it/believe it... but sale will also go through rough patches... it all comes with time. On the jones front... if jones had hit consistently, even a consistent .230, rather than disappear for months at a time, i think many more here would be looking to bring him back. Hopefully throughout the year someone with a little pop is brought in to help in that regard. As far as a grade goes for the off-season... a b- seems fair enough (j4l)... though i would personally give them a b. If they would have brought someone in with power off the bench i would have bumped them to a b+. If they would have added the bench player, and another plus reliever, i would have then rated the off-season an a. No reason to have low standards.. shoot for the stars... and be disappointed with any less. I thought a B- was a solid grade myself. But anything less than an A+ around these parts and you're the Grinch that stole White Sox Christmas or something. I agree with everything you said in your post except the part about Crain. We need him to do what he did last year. Not what he's always done. Because what he's always done hasn't been real good.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 11:11 AM) I think it's more because you rarely say anything positive about the Sox, including the GM, manager or anything either of them do and not pertaining to this offseason. Everyone knows you're a passionate fan but you sure do torture yourself about everything they do or don't do. Define positive? Why would I delude myself into thinking Crain was a great signing when I really don't believe that? Because it was the Sox who signed him, therefore I have to pretend it's great when I really don't? I guarantee you if the Cubs had signed him to the same deal there would be people all over this site talking about what a dumb move it was. Like I've said multiple times, Crain was pretty good last year. But from '07 through '09 he sported a 4.27 ERA and a 1.408 WHIP. So color me pretty skeptical. Then we give him three years on top of it? Did we not learn a thing from the Linebrink Debacle? And I've never been crazy about Loogy's. Guys that you MIGHT get 35 innings tops from? You SHOULD be able to produce guys like that from the system. But that's just me. I've raved about the Dunn signing. Not sure what else you expect me to say.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 01:19 PM) Having him spend 1 more year in the bullpen means it will take 1 more year to get his accustomed to starting again. Maybe this makes too much sense, but if you are trying to build up a youngsters arm for a future starting job, making reducing the amount of innings pitched each year isn't the best policy. And what happens if he does really well in the bullpen this year? Then next year you just strip him from the bullpen and create a hole on a player you relied on in the bullpen? And if Sale is a reliever again in 2010, then who takes over for Buehrle in 2011 in the rotation? Because Sale sure as hell won't be ready for the rotation probably 2013 if you have to stretch him arm out again because of an extra year in the 'pen. And to whoever used the Neftali Felix comparison.....how can you even use that in your arguement when we have yet to see Felix start? Just because it's their plan doesn't mean it will work out for them. I wouldn't be surprised to see Felix struggle a bit in April and then management decide "You know what, he was great for us in the pen and this starter thing isn't working out so far. Let's just put him back into the role we know he can succeed at". And then BAM, you've just gone the easy way and ended his starting career before he even got a fair chance because his bullpen success has given the coach a reason to keep a good thing going. And then you've just drafted (in Sales case) a reliever with your 1st RD pick, and that's about as dumb as it gets. Good post. And another thing worth mentioning is that Neftali Feliz was an amateur FA signing by the Atlanta Braves. Not the 13th overall pick of a draft. We have A LOT more invested in Sale than the Braves and now Rangers did/do in Feliz. And how can one forget the B-Mac debacle of 2006? Remember the plan? Stick him in the 'pen and if a starter gets hurt or needs to skip a start or two you can just automatically insert Brandon into the rotation? When it was clear as day that guys like Freddy and Mark had tired arms and could use a mini-break the rebuttal by Ozzie and Coop when asked of inserting Brandon into the rotation for a while was 'His arm is simply not stretched out enough.'

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 03:02 AM) And nothing says "stunting a career" like throwing your 1st RD draft pick into a career in the bullpen before he ever gets a fair shot at starting. Drafting a reliever in the 1st RD is an awful way to draft.

QUOTE (IamtheHBOMB @ Jan 8, 2011 -> 05:14 PM) The ridiculous comments are getting to be too much. The Sox should have won the division in 2010. Even with all kinds of stuff going wrong, they turned in a respectable record. Then KW goes on to have one of his best offseasons in his entire tenure as GM and turns an already competitive team into a legit championship threat. Yet, there is still complaining. The offseasons going into 2005 and 2006 were much better, IMO.

QUOTE (J.Reedfan8 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 12:46 AM) Good trade for the Cubs. Garza still has 3 years left on his deal before he's a FA, and is only 27. Cub fans tend to forget their prospects are what they are... prospects. Lee is probably one of (also Vitters) the only guys worth while in their system. Lee is one of the guys they traded. Archer is viewed highly by all the minor league-centric sites. Vitters stock has fallen considerably ala Tyler Flowers.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 01:44 AM) I'm in between. I think this offseason thus far hasn't been as spectacular as some are suggesting. Like you said Dunn was a nice signing, but the others? Pretty blah to me as well. Minnesota never even offered Crain a contract. That has to say something what with their bullpen's mass exodus. Ohman, a former Cub and according to Les Grobstein, not exactly a good clubhouse guy is a loogy, a guy in his 30's who never made more than $1.6 million in a season and was just granted his first mutiyear contract, and we know Ozzie doesn't generally use veterans as loogys. And by some projections, the Sox may have 2 or 3 rookies in the bullpen. That could be scary. I am happy they brought back AJP and Paulie, although I think we will see some whining about Paulie's contract somewhere down the road, and probably justified whining, but they did what they had to do to bring him back. On the other hand, compared to other AL Central teams, their offseaon seems to be a lot better. Detroit doesn't scare me. Cleveland and KC aren't going to do much, and what the heck is going on in Minnesota? I figured they would be due for a little letdown even if they brought their entire team back, but it looks like they are going to lose a lot of productive players. The Sox are sitting pretty right now. Thank you. That's all I'm saying. I'm the evil super pessimistic J4L because I'm not rating our offseason A+++++. But you do make a good point about the other teams in our division not doing a whole lot. I'll never ever sleep on the Twins. I don't care if they lose Mauer. Those fools always find a way.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jan 8, 2011 -> 11:34 PM) No offense J4L but you are one of the worst talent evaluators on this site. Lyon may be overpaid but he's got a good arm and he's a veteran. You're also waaaaaaaaaaay off base as far as his last two years. Look at those stats and get back to me. Or just don't, I don't want to argue about this. I don't get paid to be a talent evaluator. If you think Brandon Lyon is worth over 10 million dollars the next two years then don't ever apply for a GM position. I've seen his stats. He was insanely lucky in 2009 with a BABIP of .229. His career BABIP is .302. So good luck with explaining that outlier. His peripheral stats were hardly impressive. He had a nice little run towards the end of last year when Lindstrom got hurt and proved to be ineffective. But I ain't devoting 5.5 million to Brandon Lyon. No way, no how.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jan 8, 2011 -> 11:01 PM) He's never "done" so to speak, but he may not have enough money to sign anyone else to deals more than $1M or so guaranteed, and he may not find good enough deals out there to make it worth clearing salary in another deal. I'd love to see a Teahen + prospects for bad contract + cash deal OR a Teahen + cash/prospects/both for smaller salaried player. The areas we need to deepen are the bullpen, potentially the starting rotation (some extra insurance would be great), and a good 4th OF capable of starting but used to rotate around while spelling Rios in CF. Some potential targets for one of the above deals: Brandon Lyon 11:$5.25M, 12:$5.5M Coco Crisp $5.75M Michael Wuertz 11:$2.8M, 12:$3.25M club option ($0.25M buyout) Ryan Sweeney 1 year/$1.4M (2011) Nate McLouth 11:$6.5M, 12:$10.65M club option ($1.25M buyout) Kosuke Fukudome 11:$13.5M Aaron Rowand 11:$12M, 12:$12M Francisco Rodriguez 11:$11.5M, 12:$17.5M option ($3.5M buyout) Angel Pagan 1 year/$1.45M (2010) Mike Gonzalez 11:$6M Danys Baez 11:$2.75M What I really want is KRod, but we'd have to include some good prospects to get that done and without including Dayan, Morel, or Mitchell (I wouldn't trade those guys) I don't we'd have enough. I'd happily ship out Escobar, Thompson, Santos Rodriguez, Flowers, Infante, etc. Brandon Lyon could be an excellent fit though. We'd have to give up something good here, too, but not as much since we wouldn't have to take cash back. Winning in 2011 is of the ultimate importance to this organization, so I really hope something is out there. We just can't f*** it up this year. We couldn't give Mark Teahen away at this point. And hell to the no with Brandon Lyon. He's been barely replacement level the last five years and is way overpaid. I'd rather go with a minor league arm.

Not a bad couple of games to get this playoff party started.

God damn AV is clutch. He made that one easily.

Good win tonight. But it makes the two bad losses to the Nets and Sixers sting more.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jan 8, 2011 -> 09:19 PM) Bulls pulling away from Boston. We'll see if they can keep this up... Rose with 33 points on only 9 FG makes. That's the difference between a good and a great scorer. Though I will concede Rose gets hacked a lot and no foul is called.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jan 8, 2011 -> 09:18 PM) I would have loved to have brought in DeJesus for RF. It could be one of those things where he likely doesn't want to sell low on TCQ. Hopefully his foot heals properly and he can play adequate defense. I would've loved DeJesus as well. But what does it say about the pitching in our system that outside of Sale we wouldn't have been able to top Vin Mazzaro? And I don't want CQ traded unless it's a clear win. I mean like universal consensus. Because we know what he can do when he's right. I'll take the abomination that is his defense for a repeat of '08 or close to it.