Kalapse

So it works out like this: PREARB: $1 million ARB#1: $3.5 million ARB#2: $5.5 million ARB#3: $8.25 million FA#1: $10 million FA#2: $13 million team option It's a good deal for both sides, I wouldn't exactly call it a bargain since he probably would have made around the same amount in the first 4 years of the deal anyway (so they didn't really save any money in the first 4 years, in fact they're going to pay him $600K more than they have to for '08) but now they're guaranteeing him that money and in exchange he gives them a *perceived* discount in the first year of free agency and a reasonable option for the second. Good deal for both sides, risky for the Tigers but probably the smart move.

QUOTE(Princess Dye @ Feb 4, 2008 -> 04:39 PM) so, to educate a guy who doesnt know a ton about Quentin.... do we know for sure that his injury happened AFTER his minor league success last year? or can it still simply be that he's great at AAA and bad in the majors? The shoulder injury occurred in March. And it's not like he hasn't had major league success, he's been both great and terrible in the majors. It's most likely that he's just a young player who possesses incredible talent but who needs get healthy, avoid injuries and further development at the major league level. Here's how his 2007 season went: March: Tore his left labrum April: Started the season on the DL (missed about 2 weeks) May: Bad June: Bad July: 1.)Was demoted on the 6th 2.) Played incredibly well during his time at AAA 3.) Recalled from AAA on the 27th August: 1.) Suffered a moderate hamstring injury on the first day of the month that landed him on the DL 2.) Started a rehab assignment on the 19th and played poorly at AAA 3.) Activated from the DL on SEPT 1st 4.) Got a grand total of 11 ABs in the month of SEPT since the OF was full (Byrnes, Young, Upton) October: Underwent surgery to repair his torn left rotator cuff and labrum

QUOTE(Pants Rowland @ Feb 4, 2008 -> 02:44 PM) Who was it? I do not have access to BA. Pablo Ozuna

QUOTE(Brian @ Feb 3, 2008 -> 10:07 PM) Glad to have "House" back...for now. Only 3 f***ing episodes, they're teasing us.

QUOTE(2nd_city_saint787 @ Feb 3, 2008 -> 11:16 PM) I fixed it for ya No, he had it right. Neither of Penny or Lackey will be hitting free agency after the '08 season, they both have insanely cheap team options for '09 that will be picked up.

OPS+ by year: Sizemore: '05: 123 '06: 132 '07: 122 (lowest of career by 1 point) Hafner: '04: 162 '05: 168 '06: 179 '07: 118 (lowest of career by 46 points) Martinez: '04: 125 '05: 130 '06: 121 '07: 127 (second highest of career though only 2 points higher than his second worst) Peralta: '05: 137 '06: 83 '07: 100 (league average) Garko: '06: 113 [limited action] '07: 117 Barfield: '06: 96 '07: 54 (dreadful) Blake: '03: 93 '04: 122 '05: 99 '06: 114 '07: 101 (league average and actually a disappointing season from blake) Dellucci, Nixon and Michaels were all injured and terrible. Franklin Gutierrez posted a 103 OPS+ in a limited role [close to league average] Asdrubal Cabrera posted a 101 OPS+ in a limited role [close to league average] Lofton was ok in his 173 ABs I'm having trouble finding any position players who had career years. Martinez was his usual awesome self. Their best hitter was absolutely dreadful compared to his past production, Sizemore took a step back from his '06 numbers and the rest of their outfield was a disaster until Gutierrez stepped in with average production (though below average for RF.) Their opening day 2B had a terrible season and his August replacement was league average at best. In the starting rotation Carmona broke out with a 154 ERA+ so I guess you could argue he's not actually that good. Sabathia posted a 143 ERA+ which is 3 points higher than his ERA+ in '06 though he's always an injury risk and has had some consistency issues early in his career, 07 was the best combination of healthy/good he's had in his career. Byrd was league average, Westbrook was just as good as he was in '06 (108/107 ERA+) though no where near as good as he was in '04 (129 ERA+) and Sowers and Lee were very BAD in their 33 combined starts. They had 3 breakout seasons in the pen (Betancourt, Lewis, Perez), Fultz was also excellent but their closer was terrible.

QUOTE(ChWRoCk2 @ Feb 2, 2008 -> 09:26 PM) Yeah but if I understand that analysis right it means we would get that many runs if we batted Swisher and Thome 1 and 2. Which is pretty unrealistic. You aren't reading it correctly. If the Sox went with the #1 optimized lineup (Swisher - Thome - Quentin - Fields - Konerko - Dye - Richar - Pierz - Cabrera) they'd score 5.649 runs per game. The 5.527 (5.3) runs per game number is for the lineup the poster put in (Cabrera - Swisher - Thome - Konerko - Dye - Pierz - Fields - Quentin - Richar) which is a very realistic lineup.

QUOTE(Hawkfan @ Feb 2, 2008 -> 05:34 PM) Past Results 395 career major league ABs, .230/.316/.425/.741, 85 OPS+ 365 career major league ABs, .268/.324/.315/.639, 67 OPS+ If one of these guys wins an OF job he'll hit in the bottom 3rd of the order so even if he doesn't live up to expectations he won't be logging a ton of PAs. If the other guy wins an OF job he'll be leading off so if he doesn't live up to the team's expectations he'll be logging the most PAs in the batting order (if he plays everyday) and he'll be making outs in front of the best hitters in the lineup.

QUOTE(BobDylan @ Feb 2, 2008 -> 04:01 PM) Hmm. I found this interesting about Jackson. in 1911, with Cleveland, he batted .408 in 571 AB's. Ted Williams batted .406 in 456 AB's. Most of the other stats are in Williams favor, but given 100+ more at bats, could Williams have hit .400? There may be a 115 AB difference between the two but there's only a difference of 35 PA. Ted Williams walked 147 times in 1941 compared to Jackson's 56 walks in 1911. Not a huge difference in offensive opportunities.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Feb 2, 2008 -> 02:59 PM) How does he deserve a shot more than Quentin? Speed doesn't slump.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 31, 2008 -> 10:22 PM) Well, as far as I can tell, that doesn't make any sense at all, because from what I'm reading the window for the Mets to negotiate an extension with him ends at 5:00 ET tomorrow. So I have no idea where Tuesday night fits in to this. By "deal" he means "trade." If Johan wasn't traded by Tuesday night he wouldn't accept a trade at all, that's why the Twins asked all teams for their final offers Tuesday morning and accepted the trade Tuesday afternoon. So I assume if Johan is a man of his word, if this thing falls through he'll be a Twin in '08.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 31, 2008 -> 03:27 PM) The roster spot Crisp would take would be Owens if it was up to me. There's a very good chance Owens is leading off for this team in 2008 if KW doesn't get anyone else. Would you rather have Owens or Crisp? QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jan 31, 2008 -> 02:20 PM) I guess if it came down to it and Crisp were able to be acquired for next to nothing from the Sawx I'd take him in CF/leading off over Owens. At least Crisp is an elite defender with a decent arm and the potential to post an .800 OPS (no matter how remote those chances may seem.)

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 31, 2008 -> 02:57 PM) With all this bashing of Crisp, what makes Quentin such a sure thing? He is often injured and not even 100% right now. Its also questionable whether he will be full strength by opening day. You can use his injury as an excuse for his miserable year in the major leagues in 2007, but if he was so banged up, why did he have no problem back at AAA? I would much prefer Crisp to Owens. Offensively and defensively. 1.) Quentin is already on the team so it won't cost any talent to acquire him 2.) He's going to make $10M less than Crisp over the next 2 years ($10M that could be better spent else where) 3.) He has far more offensive and defensive potential than Jerry Owens and more offensive potential than Crisp 4.) And most importantly IMO: he's not going to be asked to leadoff. Meaning if his offensive production is not all that great at least it will be in the 7th/8th hole as opposed to the very top of the order.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 31, 2008 -> 02:15 PM) Do you really think there's any chance that if this team acquired that particular bowl of cereal he would do anything other than lead off? No, he would. I'm kidding myself if I suggest otherwise, I know. I just see this team as having a good amount of offensive potential which they're not going to fully tap into because they're in love with the low OBP slap hitter at the top. I guess if it came down to it and Crisp were able to be acquired for next to nothing from the Sawx I'd take him in CF/leading off over Owens. At least Crisp is an elite defender with a decent arm and the potential to post an .800 OPS (no matter how remote those chances may seem.)

QUOTE(Vance Law @ Jan 31, 2008 -> 02:07 PM) I could stomach it if he were 10th in the batting order as the 4th outfielder. I'm still convinced Owens is going to win the CF/Leadoff job in spring training (quite the accomplishment) which is going to suck. So if I had a choice between Owens in CF and leading off or Crisp in CF and hitting 8th/9th I'm going with Crisp.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jan 31, 2008 -> 01:51 PM) I disagree. I think adding Crisp solidifies (or at least this is the theory) our leadoff spot and adds great defense in Center. I think Owens can then platoon with Quentin should he not be fully healthy as of OD, with Quentin gradually taking a higher and higher percentage of the ab's. I think Jerry becomes 5th on the depth chart if Crisp is acquired. Kenny stated that he went out to acquire "not a player 'like' Carlos Quentin, but actually 'Carlos Quentin.'" I find it extremely difficult to believe that he would then allow Ozzie to bench Quentin in favor of Owens, at least assuming Quentin reaches full health at some early stage of the season. I'm certainly not in favor of surrendering much to get Crisp- not now anyways- but should we acquire him, I don't believe Quentin is the one that gets pushed back on the depth chart. So you'd actually be in favor of adding a second low OBP hitter to the top of the lineup? People sure are confident that Crisp's last 1000 major league ABs have been an aberration. The only way I'd be in favor of adding Crisp is if he were acquired in a 1-1 swap for MacDougal and if he's placed in the 8th or 9th spot in the batting order.

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Jan 31, 2008 -> 01:40 PM) I'm actually all about adding Crisp, but I do want to see a lot of Quentin as well. Well, we're likely already in for a whole lot of Owens given Ozzie's love for him. If Crisp is added to the roster Quentin moves to 5th on the depth chart, I'm not so sure how much of him we'd actually get to see.

QUOTE(BaseballNick @ Jan 31, 2008 -> 01:14 PM) I'm not sure when that happened, but if Steve Stone is talking, I'm listening. The guy knows his stuff. He also thought the addition of Erstad was a great one, that he'd bounce back and have a huge year in '07. Oops. Steve Stone has been way off on a lot of players lately. He's also said that he'd never want A-Rod on his team, not because his salary would be a hindrance but because he's not a "winner." He thinks David Eckstein is great baseball player and was pushing for the Sox to give him a lucrative 3 year deal at the beginning of the offseason. (he later signed a very cheap 1 year deal)

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 31, 2008 -> 11:15 AM) The White Sox had to decide whether or not to offer Crede arbitration by early December. In the arbitration process, I believe it's actually impossible for salaries to decrease from one year to another. Last year, Joe Crede made $4.94 million. If the White Sox hadn't offered Crede arbitration, they would have lost him for nothing in early December. When the Sox did offer Joe arbitration, they guaranteed Joe $4.94 million. Signing him for $5 million is just an expression of that. So the only physical that would have mattered would have been any one that would have been given to Joe in Early December/late November. There was no way that the Sox could offer him arbitration and then avoid paying him $4.94 million or more by giving him a physical in January or February. A player's salary can drop at most 20% in arbitration but that NEVER happens. You'll be hard pressed to find any player who's taken a paycut during his 2nd or 3rd year of arb. And Crede would not be forced to take a physical for the arbitration hearings, the arbitrator would just look at his stats and the current salaries of his comparable peers and pick either the Sox's or Crede's proposed salary.

Only 2 months until Opening Day.

QUOTE(bmags @ Jan 31, 2008 -> 01:28 AM) to be fair, at the start of 2007, he was literally the only offensive highlight for us. Yep, for 7 games in April Scott Podsednik was the s***.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 06:08 PM) I fully agree, the worst hitter ( if not the worst one of them) should be the one with the most chances to make an out, fully. Given the current personnel how would you arrange the pieces? Unless, of course, we're aloud to use imaginary players then I might have something for you. Optimized: Swisher - Thome - Pierzynski - Dye - Konerko - Fields - Quentin - Richar - Cabrera

Cabrera - Swisher - Thome - Konerko - Dye - Fields - Pierzynski - Quentin - Richar This way you minimize the number of weak-ass, punchless, low OBP hitters at the top before you get the real baseball players. It's not ideal and you're probably hurting Swisher but at least you're putting one high on base hitter ahead of the Thome/Kong/Dye threesome.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 11:16 AM) If you were constrained by salary, you could certainly make an argument that MB at $13 million a year is more valuable to a team than Johan at $25 million a year. For a team like the Mets clearly they take the better pitcher because they can afford him. The more the salary impinges upon you though, the more you have to worry. Just a point of reference: Buehrle makes $14M a year, $15M if said team trades for him.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 11:50 AM) Since we haven't seen Swisher out there, it is honestly entirely possible he could be that bad. In 06, Mackowiak basically seemed to cost us 1+ runs per game when in CF, whether the stats show it or not. Every time he was out there a ball went over his head and a run scored, or he misplayed a ball and a run scored. If Swisher's at that level, then he needs to move back to 1b or a corner position somehow, and we'll need a glove out there. It would really be nice if BA could turn things around with the bat and be that glove, but God only knows at this point. I think the fact is, we won't really know until we see how Swisher performs in CF to start the year, how Quentin performs in LF while we're at it, and how BA performs with the bat in ST and at AAA when that season starts. I've been watching A's games from last year on MLB.tv just to see Swisher play CF and after watching about 15 games (only the innings where the A's are on defense) I can say with near certainty that Nick is nowhere near as bad as Mackowiak or Everett. He just looks average to me which is good enough. Just once I'd love to hear Ozzie hint at moving JD to left field, it's the best thing for everyone involved.