Kalapse

If he does end up re-signing for 5+ years I won't complain but I'm still not convinced that this won't come back to bite the Sox in the ass in the coming years. If Kenny turned around and dealt Mark right now for a very nice package of young talent instead of inking him to a new deal, I'd be happy with that as well.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Jun 27, 2007 -> 02:01 AM) I guess that angle I was taking is that there is no offensive stat that can possibly compare to wins in terms of awfulness. Definitely agree with that.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Jun 27, 2007 -> 01:42 AM) At least a hitter controls his average. Very true but it's also one of the most misleading stats you'll find and despite the fact that it doesn't tell you much about it hitter it's still the most prominently used statistic out there. Like last year Jim Thome hit .204 in close & late situations which is something you'd see a lot during a baseball broadcast leading you to believe that he was bad when it mattered most. But while he wasn't getting a lot of hits close & late his .393 OBP & .527 SLG tells you that he was actually getting on base 39% of the time which is excellent and 53% of the time he comes to the plate in those situations he's getting a base. It's like when Robinson Cano hit .297 his rookie year but at the same time had an IsoD of 23. That sucks.

Judging a pitcher's success based on their win total is like judging a hitters success based solely on his batting average.

From yesterday's Winner thread: Jose Contreras: 5-8 Equivalent: Carlos Silva (MIN) (5-8) Mark Buehrle: 4-4 Equivalent: Brian Bannister (KC) (4-4) John Garland: 4-5 Equivalent: Aaron Cook (COL) (4-5) Javier Vazquez: 3-5 Equivalent: Matt Chico (WAS) (3-5) John Danks: 4-6 Equivalent: Kameron Loe (TEX) (4-6) QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 10:24 PM) I actually like to take it one step further. I'm all for abolishing the W/L record of pitchers altogether. It's a meaningless statistic that does nothing but confuse people who don't know what to look for when using statistics to evaluate player performance. F*** Jeriome Robertson, seriously. Who would you rather have? PITCHER A: 8-7 w/ 4.90 ERA, 1.50 WHIP or PITCHER B: 2-8 w/ 3.46 ERA, 1.31 WHIP If someone were going by wins, which people like Hawk Harrelson tend to do, they would probably take player A.

QUOTE(greg775 @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 11:02 PM) I hope the "stud prospects" pan out better than Reed, Borchard, Olivo, et all. I'd rather keep our studs and do the free agency thing. It's Jerry's money, not mine. Only part of it is Jerry's money and since you're not the one spending it he and the rest of the BoD are going to keep the team payroll at a strict budget next season just as they do every year. Likely somewhere in the $80-$95M range (it could go either way.) Free agency alone is not going to save this old, broken down team.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 11:52 PM) Is Roland Hemond still working for the Sox? If so, he was scouting at the Dodgers/DBacks game. Yes, I believe he is.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 11:47 PM) oops, I made a booboo... Twice

I'll take my chances with 64 wins, a top 3 pick and first round Type A free agent protection rather than a .500 record, a pick between 18-23 and possibly losing that first round pick if KW decides to go after any Type A free agents this offseason. In defense of the s***ty drafts the Sox continue to have many people point to the fact that the Sox haven't had a top 10 pick in 17 years and in order to get yourself a Verlander you need a pick at the top of the draft. Well this is the year we finally get our chance at picking a Verlander and I will embrace it. Last 4 White Sox top 10 picks: 1990 - #4 - Alex Fernandez - Very good pitcher for a number of years 1989 - #7 - Frank Thomas - Greatest player in the history of the franchise 1988 - #10 - Robin Ventura - One of the best players in team history 1987 - #5 - Jack McDowell - Dominant starter for 4 consecutive seasons in the early 90's, Last Cy Young award winner the franchise has seen. I want a top 5 pick damnit!

Mark Prior is 26 and Gavin Floyd is 24, a little early to be calling it a career.

Heh, choice. Buehrle since he's the superior pitcher and all.

QUOTE(southsida86 @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 11:24 PM) If LAD were to offer Billingsley for Dye straight up in a couple of weeks if Billingsley keeps sucking would you do it, knowing that he'd been bad? I doubt that they'd even make that offer but it is a hypothetical question. IP H R ER BB SO HR Billingsley 4.0 4 5 5 3 2 3 Gabbard 3.1 6 4 4 6 2 1 Terrible, just terrible. This can't be the Same Kason Gabbard that shutdown the Sox last season could it?

QUOTE(greg775 @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 11:06 PM) I know you don't care about my mood. I'm asking about your mood. You don't feel better when your team wins? There are no guarantees about any draft pick. My god, we could pick fifth and wind up with the best player. I want to win every game. I find it hard to believe I'm not in the majority. I mean if I lived in chicago like before and had season tix, I'd damn well want to win the games I attended. Losing sucks. We'll you really feel that much better if the team finishes at 75-87 than if they finished at 63-99? Either way you miss the playoffs but one of them brings you a much higher draft pick.

QUOTE(RX Bandits @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 10:18 PM) seeing as how people reacted on this board when garcia was traded, i dont even want to think about the reactions of a crede trade after 05. Can I take credit for being 100% behind the Garcia trade from the day it was made? I absolutely LOVED that deal. Yeah, that's right, I want some god damn dap.

How can it possibly be perceived as a bad thing that a fan wants his team to lose if said fan believes losing some games now will mean many more wins in the future? I mean, if I think the Sox tanking the rest of the season will only make the team better in the long run how can I be perceived as a bad fan? I want what's best for the team, if it means losing 100 games this season then so be it.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 09:51 PM) Listen, I see what you are getting at. But all the games the Sox will be playing from here on out will either be pointless or to try and weaken someone else out of the playoffs. I love the White Sox and I don't like to see them suck, but hey, we do suck. I'd like us to get a top draft pick and be better off in the long run rather then getting another mid round pick, and probably another mediocre "safe" pick. All you ever hear around here is how you can't get elite talent like Andrew Miller or Justin Verlander unless you have absolutely terrible seasons and get a top 10 pick which the Sox haven't had in forever. So this is season is a golden opportunity to tear apart an old, expensive team as well as lose 90+ games and pick up a top 5 pick. All of which should make this team better in the long run. I'm so greatful for 2005 and hell even the strong attempt the organization made to go for it in 2006 but I'm about ready to dismantle this club and build it back up from the ground up. We, the fans, got to see a WS victory followed by a solid 90 win ballclub now it's time to rebuild this organization for the future and I have no problem with it. So the Sox have to go what? 64-25 the rest of the way to reach 95 victories? How does that seem attainable to anybody?

QUOTE(greg775 @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 09:47 PM) The odds of Pedro not making it big are MUCH greater than him making it big. I have better things to do than dream about some guy who may or may not even make the bigs, stay healthy, etc. I mean what are the odds? Look at all the can't miss prospects who suck. CJ Henry. 5 tool player? Uh .200 hitter. There are no guarantees. I'd rather win now and worry about drafts later, but that's just me. There's a better chance of a top 5 pick becoming an elite major league talent than there is a guy selected in the middle of the first round. Even if the Sox drafted Alvarez/other top 3 pick just played well for his first year or 2 in the minors they'd be an incredible asset on the trade market. If KW decided he wanted to pick up more accomplished professional ballplayers in return for Alvarez' huge upside. If I had a choice between this Sox team winning 64 games or 75 (I think this is the ceiling for the '07 Sox), I'll take 64 in a heartbeat. 11 more wins does absolutely nothing for you.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 09:27 PM) I want Richar, Sweeney, and Floyd up in July. I want Iguchi, Podsednik and Contreras gone in July.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 02:46 PM) Sorry everyone, next time you have a question about prospects and what is avaible and what is not and what other teams would look for and have wanted then Kalapse is your man. He knows all of this stuff and there is not a doubt about it. You're going to be incredibly disappointed with the return the Sox get on Buehrle and Contreras. Perhaps the Diamondbacks would be interested in moving Justin Upton for Contreras since that's pretty damn close to the equivalent of the Mets dealing Martinez. I don't claim to know everything, despite what you say, I'm just using logic here. A trade of Martinez for Contreras makes absolutely no sense especially with Willis being perpetually available and in desperate need of a young, studly outfielder. If you really think any team is going to trade one of the top 5 prospects in baseball for an aging, expensive Contreras then you can continue to dream but you should be prepared for a huge let down.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 02:01 PM) Unless Contreras invoked his NTC, which would make me hate him forever. How about this then, if Fernando Martinez were available Dontrelle Willis would be wearing orange and blue right now.

If Minaya were offering up Martinez for Contreras KW would have made the deal already.

QUOTE(heirdog @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 12:52 PM) When you have a Beltran, Milledge and Gomez, you can give something up to win now and eventually they will. Martinez is going to be a top 5 prospect in baseball when the Top 100 is released next season. I don't see any reason why Minaya would deal him for an old, expensive pitcher who might be an upgrade over what they have now. You'll see Milledge dealt long before Martinez. Oh, the grammatical error in my original post was completely inexcusable. Just terrible really.

QUOTE(WHITESOXRANDY @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 12:43 PM) If you can get this done, I'll be you a lifetime pass to Sox park. I'll do it for anyone that can do this. I don't think the Yanks would give the Sox Hughes for all of the players you mentioned. On top of that the most you could probably get from the Mets for Contreras is likely Humber alone. The fact that people are even mentioning Martinez' name in conjunction with Contreras is laughable.

QUOTE(WHITESOXRANDY @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 11:55 AM) I'm not saying that I think Fields will be an All-Star but I think his defense will be fine, he can run a little bit so one less plodder on the bases and he'll hit in the .250-.280 range with an OBP of .330-.360 25-35 homeruns and knock in 90-110. That's my prediction. If he can do the low end of that, it'll be one less position for the Sox to worry about. Fill the other 5-6 holes. Yeah, I'm thinking he'll probably be a .700-.950 OPS player.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 09:47 AM) The more interest the better. Demand + one pitcher = lots of items coming back. I hope everyone jumps on this. If we see an injury on one of the teams we could see the price jump quite a bit. QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 09:51 AM) It would be splendid if one of the Mets starting pitchers or Dodgers starting pitchers gets injured. Also, it wouldn't hurt if Gappard gets rocked tonight for the Red Sox. I still think Schillings shoulder is the wildcard here. As of right now it looks like he'll miss 2 starts but the team doesn't know for sure. If he has a setback Epstein could get antsy.