CaliSoxFanViaSWside

My kind of guys. We do have the same owner who, in his reign has never, produced back to back playoff teams. Hopefully that changes this year but I'm not going to take anything for granted like making the playoffs every year for the next 6 years. If we can't win a World Series in the next 3 years there isn't going to be one in the following 3 years. It takes this team 10 years of coming close before they realize they can't/won't spend enough to get them over the top before they tear it down again. The Sox had good teams in the 90's. We kept hearing about 2nd highest winning percent for a cumulative period. It never got them in the playoffs in back to back years. It didn't get them a World Series . They won 1 World Series because ,in an unlikely chain of events, a lot of good things happened that you could say was planned, based on a number of roster decisions ending up working, but ,in the grand scheme was just so much going right at the same time, it can only be described as luck or fate. The Sox aren't real good at actually planning to win because they don't do it that often. They always suck at one thing or another , drafting, trading for or signing bums or trading away superstars ,international draft, MLB scouting but mostly not really caring about winning.

If I had realized you were the same guy who made the Don Cooper joke earlier in the thread I probably would not have answered you in that way lol. I was trying to be kind to a guy who possibly wasn't around for all those discussions. I only wrote what I did about Tatis because part of his argument about being pissed about the trade when he initially wasn't was after he saw the Keith Law comment about the Sox not even seeing him play and it upset him because he thought the process was flawed .

Actually it has been repeatedly. At this point it's overkill.

I think everything you say here makes sense and I applaud the process was flawed approach. But I wouldn't put much faith in what Keith Law said about never seeing him play. The Sox hired Marco Paddy to specifically find and sign guys like Tatis. Sons of ex ML ball players are always a good commodity to take a chance on. Obviously because of Paddy recommendation having scouted him and seen him play the Sox signed him : The following is from MLB.com dated July 2, 2015: The headline read: Tatis Jr. among White Sox finds on int'l market The White Sox signed shortstop Fernando Tatis Jr., ranked No. 27 on MLB.com's Top 30 International Prospects list, for $825,000, and outfielder Franklin Reyes, ranked No. 30., for $1.5 million. Additionally, the White Sox signed Brayant Nova, a 6-foot-1, 170-pound, switch-hitting infielder, and Santo Vasquez, a 6-foot, 170-pound shortstop. Both sixteen-year old players are from the Dominican Republic. The article went on to say : The son of former Major League infielder Fernando Tatis, Tatis Jr. has a strong arm and fluid actions on defense. The right-handed hitter has displayed raw power to his pull side and has a knack for barreling up the ball. What's more, his repeatable swing has impressed evaluators. On defense, he could end up at second base or third base." You notice SD did not end up with Franklin Reyes , younger brother of Franmil Reyes who was signed in the same class for $700K more than Tatis, Jr. nor any of the other guys mentioned. Like most teams such as what the Cubs just did they went for the Shortstop with raw power and son of an ex MLB player who once hit 4 HR's in a game and 2 grand slams in the same inning. You can bet your bottom dollar SD knew who to ask for. The process of course could still be flawed because why hire Paddy to fix your international system and then throw in one of his prize signings in a trade. Can you imagine an exchange that went like this? Hey Rick since we're paying part of Shields salary we need someone to sweeten the pot. I like those 2 kids you just signed Reyes and Tatis .Is Reyes off the table ? I know you paid a lot for him . .... Padres then settle on Tatis jr. knowing all along that's who they really wanted. So it's pretty obvious that someone saw him play. The higher ups had to see video of him and trusted Paddy's judgment. I would think specifically KW saw film of him since he started as a scout with the Sox in 92 then was Director of Minor League Operations and after that VP of Player Development. Maybe they never saw him play in person but Paddy did and that's what he's paid to do. At some point you have to wonder was Paddy even consulted.

That's the way i see it. Maybe that's how the Sox see it too having already given up Dunning from the 25. You can't build depth by removing guys from the 25 . I think the Sox are going to search and search for the right trade but ultimately settle on a FA pitcher .

Yes and no . Yes he was their best pitcher but until 2020 he never had ace results. He's never been an All-Star. He basically his 5 pitches , Four seamer, Cutter, Sinker, Change up and curve. He gets by outsmarting hitters keeping them off balance . If I look at Brooks baseball and his 2020 stats I see just how he does it, varying the pitch he uses most from month to month. 7/20 he used the 4 seamer 33.53 % and sinker 10.78% 8/20 4 seamer 25.92 % sinker 19.80% 9/20 4 seamer 17.75% sinker 27.25 The cutter was used mostly the same % every month and his most effective pitch . His command was exceptional last year and it definitely showed up in his K/BB numbers which were by far the best of his career. His curve and change are his worst pitches but he got most of his K's using the curve because it has pretty good bite but the hard hit % was kind of high on it. He will use the 4 seamer, sinker and cutter interchangeably with the sinker and 4 seamer thrown at the same velocity and the cutter only slighly below. Don't expect 90 MPH on any of his pitches. He is your typical smoke and mirrors guy who you keep expecting to be blown up but he rarely does because he is so good with keeping hitters off balance. The one thing that made the big difference in 2020 was the exceptional command. His WHIP in 2018 was 1.224 , 2019 it was 1.310 , in 2020 it was 0.947.

Hello Don Cooper. This is not true if you are indeed pretending to sound like Cooper as a lark.

If he could just get that changeup working we'd have something like Hendricks (Kyle not Liam).

I would hope so. Explore as many options as you can.

Exactly my point. Outliers, freaks of nature and Chapman is a reliever. Guys like Bundy happen a lot more . Throw gas ,get injured and adjust and if you are lucky you can become a starting pitcher but years down the line when you have been no help to the team that drafted you. DeGrom still throws pretty hard after Tommy John in 2010 and surgery for nerve damage in the same elbow in 2016. In rookie ball he had TJ missed all of 2011 and the Mets didn't bring him up until 2014 when he was 26.

Yes like with every trade what is the cost ? You certainly don't want to overvalue 2020 but you know the Mariners will do just that to get the better deal. Better to trade him coming off a career year even if it was less than half a season. His specialty pitches are his cutter and sinker which is just up the Sox alley. His curve and change up are not nearly as effective . He also doesn't throw very hard so aesthetically he doesn't appeal to those who clamor for flamethrowers. Much like why many here weren't clamoring for Keuchel. As a comp perhaps you compare him to Kyle Hendricks but Hendricks has been awesome for a lot longer because he has a great change up which tunnels well with his sinker. The Sox really don't need 2020 Gonzales but that is the best case scenario and would be a huge help in winning a Championship. As long as he can still be 2019 Marco Gonzales he will provide what the Sox need.

I think pitching in the minors or majors is almost equal as far as injuries go. I will agree with you in principle that being a reliever in MLB could maximize injury potential but if he opens innings rather then coming in with men on base without the constant up and down prep that relievers usually have to do I am not as opposed to that as you are. I think you have have to keep him prepped as a starter on his throwing program and use him as the last man in the pen or a long reliever who doesn't actually pitch very long ,not like what you would expect from a typical long reliever . Mostly 1-3 innings and every 4th or 5th day. But I really don't see the Sox keeping him on the 25 all year long. He could start the season in the minors despite what Katz said . I think that no matter what he will be in the minors for some period of time in 2021.

He might be a guy who requires a deeper dive into his pitching. He certainly pitched great in 2020. His K to BB ration spiked like way higher then it has ever been. A lot less walks and more K's. I thought I would briefly look into his 1st and 2nd half stats in 2018 and 2019 to see if maybe the short season was a false predictor of future performance. I didn't see anything that stood out. A deeper dive into why he was so much better in 2020 probably is in order. He could ve figured things out but he wasn't exactly chopped liver before last season either. But if you could get 2020 Marco Gonzales for 3 years you pull that trigger .

Glove side and high also. You don't see a heckuva lot of strikes low in the zone or on the outside edge either. If you are only throwing strikes down the middle or up and in you aren't going to be effective.

Coop wasn't exactly media friendly so we never got this kind of communication with the press so we may never know.

Great so now we just need to know how much baseball is going to delay the MiLB season , when the MLB season is going to start and make it through Crochet's 1st year in the minor or in the majors uninjured. Piece of cake. I still like option 2 best.

So you are advocating the Sox not get another starter this off season ? Cease and Crochet at number 4 and 5 ? That's not something most of us think is very wise for SP depth. Kopech would be a better choice as a 5 with Crochet in the minors. Kopech's arm surgery is behind him now and he has had some success in the minors. Both will be on an innings limit but Kopech is likely to give you more innings as a starter than Crochet. Crochet has never had any success as a starter and I would prefer he have that at some level before starting in MLB for the Sox. Cease and Kopech or Cease and Crochet would burn out the BP. We do need 1 more SP because no one really got any innings in the 2020 Covid season and there is going to be a lot of tired arms out there.

And all those things are reasons why I have been advocating trading him. Options 1 and 3 involved him pitching and building up innings therefore risking that arm falling apart. It's definitely going to get very fatigued and maybe by mid season starting games in the minors. Basically you prefer him pitching a whole season just because ideally that's what's best but that's going to require quite a few 1 inning appearances . Lets say he can get 15 starts in the minors and averages 3 innings per start so maybe's he's at 45-50 innings by pitching May through August , then in Sept. give him some relief appearances in the minor and MLB . Maybe 6 appearances max going 1 or 2 innings. Let's say he average 1.1 innings, then he's perhaps up to 50-60 IP. Then the playoffs where hopefully he can help the team by pitching another 10+ innings in relief. Win a World Series. Build up his innings as a starter, and he doesn't get injured . Is everybody happy ?

When I look around MLB I don't see too many guys who have thrown 100MPH for too many years who haven't have surgery. Maybe you can name a few relievers maybe even a starter or 2 but there might be nothing the Sox can do to prevent it.

I think you are right on with 2 and 3 . I'd adjust 1 to say that him pitching at all, with how hard he throws ,there's going to be a good chance of injury anyway. You can stretch him out as a starter in the minors, but he will still more than likely not be going longer than 3 innings every start until he reaches a point they feel he can do more. At some point you will have to slow him down because fatigue will definitely come into play which is why I think anyone mentioning 100 inning this year is going to be very disappointed. The Sox just cannot ignore that he could help them win a World Series. You might think that is short sighted but that is why we all talk about White Sox baseball. We want to be able to win a Championship and have that electric arm help in any way he can. If the Sox can still use him in October I'd love to see it. If not then I'd be ecstatic to have him get through a whole minor league season as a starter with no MLB pitching uninjured with 75+ innings.

Plus Meyers was a very successful college pitcher even if he pitched a lot in relief. And Meyer pitched until Covid shut him down . Crochet was not successful as a college pitcher and Covid did not shut him down , shoulder soreness did. Crochet is high risk/high reward with an electric arm. But unless he is a freak of nature he won't be able to sustain his stuff before he succumbs to injury. It happens to just about everybody who throw's 100 and twice in the last year he was shut down due to shoulder soreness and forearm tightness. Take your pick TJ or shoulder surgery. One of them is coming.

Right. I can agree with this. The internal discussions about Crochet have probably been endless among guys who know everything about the kid.It doesn't mean they are choosing the right path, just that all things considered it's likely the most logical one.Do the best they can do protect his arm , get some innings and help the team. Maybe Crochet agrees with that path.

Fine don't defend your position. You're purposefully being naive.

You're are making excuses for why he wasn't pitching calling shoulder soreness not an injury. Fine he wasn't injured . Let's say I see it your way. What difference does it make ? He still wasn't pitching . If you are not pitching how can you have any worth ? How can you become a better pitcher ? How can anyone know if you can start without being injured if you aren't on the mound doing it ? Does that make it any more clear to you ?

You usually are sore before you get injured in your shoulder . He still wasn't pitching and pitching is what pitchers do. If you can't pitch you can't develop, you can't be scouted you can't be relied upon, you can't help your team.