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They are both. I put a post and links to articles in the Wheeler thread saying how much his fastball/curveball spin rates improved like top of the league improvement. His hard hit balls % wasn't so good. Bottom 15% if I remember right . I;m not a sabremetrician so I'm sure there re other metrics to use on either side. I will say I don't dislike him as much as every here besides turnin' two. I have been suggesting that with the increased spin rate he might ve had a few problems with commanding those pitches at the higher spin rate and would look to next year to him having a much better idea on where his pitches were going. Even though his walk rate was good I think he left a lot of balls over the middle of the plate that were hit hard and resulted in a lot of HR's. This is just me trying to project him whereas most people are saying please no, God no ,and hard pass because a player is always who he is especially with the mileage on his arm and being a fly ball pitcher. I think he will be better, most do not.

Twins are in on Ryu too supposedly.

I'm sorry if I was too harsh.

I asked because as just a picture it doesn't convey anything about how the Sox are perceived. Sorry for trying to help you if you made a mistake. I'll remember next time that you are a dick.

You do realize that's just a .jpg and not a video right ?

True or that Madbum leaves the NL even though I am in the minority that he's not as bad as everyone thinks. There seems to be a huge disconnect between what we think here and how the industry is evaluating him based on the reports.

Let her walk and see if she could find another dude making $24M a year.

I can tell you are always behind because you read the whole thread. That's a good thing. Wish more people would do that.

Can't win around here sometimes. We get all this talk about spin rates and analytics being a good sign ( " Bumgarner’s fastball/curve spin rates were near the apex of the league this season, ") yet somehow he is a ticking time bomb. It's very possible once his spin rates improve he had other adjustments he had to make in order to command those pitches and left a few too many in the middle of the plate . https://www.sfgate.com/giants/article/Bumgarner-Giants-free-agency-stock-rising-14879151.php https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/11/free-agent-faceoff-wheeler-vs-bumgarner-vs-ryu.html There's a very good reason he's getting high offers already and has just as many teams after him as were after Wheeler.

There are a few of us thinking the same way. Too many question marks still in the young players especially the starting pitchers to seriously think of the Sox making the playoffs in 2020. However I can't really blame those who wanted to compete this year and put all their eggs in the Wheeler basket. I didn't see them getting into the playoffs even with Wheeler as it still just gave them 2 good starting pitchers, That post you quoted by me literally is coming true right now.

So when does KW start yapping about how the Sox had a better offer if he could just stay healthy the entire length of the contract ?

I just think by your comments on how upset you will be if we lose out on Wheeler you're going to blame the Abreu contract and being inflexible on Bumgarner and Ryu is just setting yourself for a huge disappointment if the Sox don't convert on Wheeler. This just doesn't apply to you. I suspect a lot of people here are going to consider the off season a failure if we don't get Wheeler no matter what happens the rest of the off season unless we somehow switch to Cole or Strasburg as targets when the next logical targets will be Bumgarner and Ryu.

Don't forget how attractive Grandal will be to pitch to. I have to think they're going to like that he is considered one of the top pitch framers.

Yes it's clearly an issue at having a fiercely competitive guy who hates when guys on the other team hit HR's. My God i'd have to put that right up there with the wife beaters and steroid users, pill poppers, alcoholics and guys who didn't hustle because they were already under contract and decide only to get in shape in a contract year.

You really think if the Sox wanted Bumgarner they are going to ask him what he thinks of Timmy pimping HRs ?

Yes he is fiercely competitive and would offer a wealth of knowledge to the Sox young pitchers. No pitcher likes HR's being hit off them and he shows it more by getting angry with the hitter if he perceives you watched it too much ,but I'd imagine he's just taking out the anger at himself on the hitter. I highly doubt he would clash with Anderson or Grandal especially when they pimp a HR that wins him and the team some games .

Guess we're lucky that last year isn't next year. He's a great pitcher and still relatively young and I have always believed his arm would bounce back after all those post season innings and the dirt bike accident and last year it did. I think the 2nd year back from all that will be a lot more productive. You don't .

Just curious have you done this with Wheeler ?

This is so overblown as any reason for not having him. You are talking about a guy who destroyed post season pitching records and played on a lot of years in MLB . I'm pretty sure he has had fun team mates before .

It's been said that Gio and Lopez were hurt near the top of the list by poor pitch framing which is on McCann and Castillo. That's why I see no need for McCann to be Gio's personal catcher unless he strictly prefers it. But I'm sure he knows the numbers on being hurt by pitching framing and will be open to having Grandal catch him.

Correct however it could be that he just hasn't mastered that increase yet command wise. I think he can.

Guess who had the biggest fastball spin rate increase in 2019, Hint: Giolito was 2nd.

The Podcast worked !

Its going to be a very long off season if this narrative comes out for every free agent the Sox are in on but don't get . And we can count on it coming out since I've already seen it multiple times by multiple posters regarding Wheeler. Just try to keep it in perspective that it's still early and there's a long way to go before deciding the Sox lost the off season. You really don't know if a Ryu or Madbum signing turns out better than a Wheeler signing until it plays out. There's also some young RF out there be it in the Rockies or A's organization who hasn't yet emerged as a 3 or 4 WAR type player but will. I would accept a prospect for prospect deal on some September call up or AAA guy who can play defense and who is deemed ML ready offensively also; I know most want a recognizable name but I'd sure feel better about the Sox PD and scouting if for once we can identify talent that another team might undervalue and deem expendable.

It's not anymore. $100M probably is in the area of what he will get.