nitetrain8601

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 09:54 PM) Umm, what? Tyrus has great defensive instincts.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 09:52 PM) Wow, total rebounds for a guy that missed 20 games. Nice try. Yeah, he was if you do sort by position on ESPN. His 6.3 a game last year would have put him 4th behind Lebron, Melo and Josh Howard, just slightly ahead of Rudy Gay and Danny Granger. Even if you slide Mike Miller, Lamar Odom, Josh Smith and Antwan Jamison to SF (all are debateable) he'd be in the top-10. In 06/07 his 7.1 rebounds was second at the position, again, down to 5th if you count Marion, Smith and Jamison. Small forwards that grossly out-rebound Deng are extremely rare. I wouldn't slide Antawn, but Josh Smith, Lamar Odom I would for sure. And Marion is a bonafide SF. Again, Deng is a good rebounder for his position, he's not out of this world, however.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 09:48 PM) Remember that part where he missed 20 games? If he hadn't, he still wouldn't be top 5 for SF's.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 09:39 PM) He'll give you about 9 and 9 as a PF, take way too many jump shots that he can't hit, get into foul trouble, demand the ball and sulk all game when he doesn't get it, play mediocre defense with an extraordinary block every once in a while, have a goaltending here and there, and then throw down a spectacular dunk, causing more people, such as you, to ignore his lack of ANY skill and only look at his amazing athleticism and hope for great potential. Doesn't help when the only PT you get is at SF(which is out of position) and if you make one mistake, you get pulled.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 09:42 PM) I agree with you that Gordon would be a valuable scorer between Rose and Deng, but you're still overrating him. He gets triple teamed because they know he's going to get the ball, sure, but a great player would make something happen and pass it out to the open man. You're telling me Deng is capable of hitting a wide open jump shot throughout the entire game except for in the 4th quarter? An open jumper is an open jumper, plain and simple. By my count, a triple team on Gordon means that TWO guys are open. Dish the rock son. I'm saying if Deng gets it, he's going to pass it to someone else and let them take the shot or hope someone finds a shot for someone else as evident that Noc and Joe Smith scored more in the 4th than he did. And the Bulls plan to be utilizing pick and rolls with Rose alot and play at a fastbreak type offense. That means easy buckets for Tyrus. The problem when running pick and roll with Skiles is that he would have Duhon and Ben Wallace run it alot. Ben is offensively inept, Duhon can't shoot. So a team could always just double down on whatever player and know they wouldn't get burned because a shot wasn't going to get made. Tyrus and Rose will have a lot of lobbing going on, just like Chandler now does in NO. Plus, Tyrus can change the game with his defense. He has great instincts. He just has to get a little bulkier, but we'll see.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 09:37 PM) I'm pretty sure Luol is a top 5 rebounder in the league as a SF if he would have qualified. We should only expect 17 and 6 out of him? I guess we can throw out the 19 and 7 season he had in 06/07? I guess it's too much to ask of him to develop into a guy who can give you 22 and 8? Come on... Oh yeah, at least for total rebounds, since I can't find RPG, Deng isn't in the top 15 for SF's. http://basketballreference.com/leaders/lea...g=n&yr=2007

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 09:37 PM) I'm pretty sure Luol is a top 5 rebounder in the league as a SF if he would have qualified. We should only expect 17 and 6 out of him? I guess we can throw out the 19 and 7 season he had in 06/07? I guess it's too much to ask of him to develop into a guy who can give you 22 and 8? Come on... Name me guys who have substantially improved their 5th year into their careers from their previous year. Only guys I could think of are guys who didn't play much their first couple of years, were injured the year before. Guys like Gerald Wallace. Guys don't improve as much as you think they do.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 09:28 PM) I agree that Hinrich over dribbles the ball, but he doesn't dribble it and jack up 3's. How many times has Gordon stood at the top of the arc in a game winning/tying situation, crossed over 4 times, pump faked 7 times only to get the ball stolen/blocked resulting in an easy layup on the other end sealing a Bulls loss. He's AWESOME in the 4th quarter unless it's the final shot. He forces it way too much knowing he can't create a shot on his own. The only game winning shot I ever making him remember was the floater against the Knicks like 3 seasons ago. Hinrich dribbles the ball for about 20 seconds a game, then ends up passing to whoever's right next to him for a contested jumper. It's usually Gordon, but I've seen Deng and Wallace get the ball in that situation too. And Gordon gets triple teamed at the end of games because everyone else knows, he's the only one who wants to make that shot and the only one capable of hitting it. His coach knew this and so do others. Now with Rose, hopefully he could help the Bulls get creative on offense, so he could drive, if he gets doubled, he could pass to Gordon for an open 3 or Deng for an open mid range shot or throw to Tyrus on an open lob.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 09:25 PM) Subjectively Gordon is a better player, but you can't look at their production on paper and tell me with a straight face that Gordon blows away Ricky Davis. He's another guy that averages in the high-teens, shoots in the low-to-mid 40's from the field, and outside of 06/07 has a PER in the 15-16.5 range. Sure, Gordon is a much better shooter, but the overall package/contributions doesn't really look RADICALLY different. Nocioni and Smith also took more shots than Deng in those situations, that's going to happen when you miss like 20 games and/or play less in a few others due to injuries. Again, I'm not arguing that Deng is a monster in the clutch, but that's one of your MAJOR tenants of why Gordon is so great. I also never said that Deng wasn't a catch and shoot player, and comparing him to Hamilton doesn't exactly help your cause because he's been a better player than Gordon. Deng does actually SCORE when he gets the ball inside though, unlike Gordon and his horrendous 47.5% on inside shots that's in the bottom 10 in the league. Deng is a decent but not stellar scorer and that's only part of his game, the ONLY thing that Gordon does that's decent is score, so he should probably do some of those things if he's supposed to be this great offensive option that deserves to get paid over 12 mil a year. Deng is a decent rebounder and not much else. He doesn't do anything dynamically. Deng is never going to start a run for you, defensively or offensively. He'll give you his 17ppg and 6rpg and that's it. You could never really expect much more. Now the question at hand is that worth potentially up to 80 million to you? Not to me. I wouldn't mind Gordon getting paid as much as Deng because I think they're equally as important. Thing is, I don't think either are worth at least 71 million dollars a year. Neither are that good, but Gordon is just as good and just as important as Deng.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 09:13 PM) Quoted from the Collective Bargaining Agreement: So assuming they signed him to the same 6-70 as Deng got his value would be just over 10 mil, making him a highly viable trade candidate. Prior to July 1st is the key. Basically, that would be a for when players are extended, and then traded within the same year. They have to wait until after Dec 15th, IIRC, but after that, is when that would be applicable. I'll try to get the section on sign and trades for you.

QUOTE (rangercal @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 09:15 PM) With the right Offense and a --------------------->True PG Deng,Gordon,Rose is what I want to see. Make it happen Pax! I think in all honesty, this is our best hope. I wish we could trade Hughes and Gooden for a bunch of capspace so we could avoid the cap. In a perfect world PG-Rose/Hinrich SG-Gordon/Hinrich SF-Deng/Selfolosha PF-Thomas/Nocioni C-Noah/Gooden I know that won't happen, but I wish it would.

QUOTE (sircaffey @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 09:11 PM) And how many times have you seen Gordon dribble around at the top of the key for a while and chuck up a 3? A bizzilion... You may have confused him with Hinrich.

They put Uribe back in the starting spot. I think they are liking the fact that he's fitting in well with the clubhouse. Honestly, I wouldn't trade Cabrera until you can get someone similar or better offensively.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 09:06 PM) How would this deal help the Celtics then?

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 09:01 PM) If that were the case, how the heck would the rumored deal to Golden State happen? Harrington and Jackson have set contracts too, big ones. Sign and trades aren't subject to all of the normal rules. Well Speedy Claxton and someone else are rumored to be going. That's what they're trying to figure out. Minny is rumored to be involved in the deal, but not much is known on what they would give up.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 08:36 PM) I'm not trying to argue that Deng is a monster in the clutch, you are with Gordon. If you shoot enough you're going to score, that doesn't mean he's good/efficient at it as those stats show. He's among the worst in the league in clutch TO's and his clutch shooting percentage was sub-par too. Just because he's OUR #1 option late doesn't mean he's a good one. Maybe if Gordon would actually let Deng shoot the ball he'd have more impressive numbers in those situations, Ben had twice as many attempts. The PG argument is BS too, the majority of the people that are up there aren't PG's either and most are well under Gordon on that percentage. He's at his best as a catch and shoot player so other people have to force the action, Ben doesn't fair well when he tries to do it. Also, statistically the Bulls' best unit was Hinrich/Hughes/Deng/Gooden/Noah by a fairly wide margin (though none were particularly good), so I don't see how Gordon "clearly" makes their PG's better. For all of his amazing offensive prowess he scored a whopping 1.8 more points per game than Deng in his "s***" year. Neither player is a true difference maker, but Deng brings a lot more to the table. Luol has led the team in PER each of the last three years and hasn't exactly been blown away in scoring. It's not THAT hard to find guys that can score and do nothing else (especially for the kind of money he wants), just look at guys like Ricky Davis or half of the Knicks' roster. You did not just compare Ricky Davis to Ben Gordon, did you? I won't take that seriously. And how do you explain Joe Smith and Andres Nocioni doing better scoring wise than Deng? It's because no one has faith in him in the 4th and he doesn't like that stage. Luol doesn't try to do it because his mentality isn't set to do so. Let's put it this way, how many times have you ever seen Deng demand the ball? How many times have you seen him post up a smaller player and call for the rock, just once? None. How many times have you seen him blow past a player? Never. And to say Gordon is a catch and shoot player is saying Deng is Richard Hamilton without the 3 point shot. http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHI9A.HTM Deng had 67% of his shots assisted last year. The year before, 69% of his shots were assisted. Gordon on the other hand, 52% this year, 45% of his shots assisted in 06-07. The reason why I included 06-07 was because that was both their best year. So there is no way you can tell me Gordon is a catch and shoot player and then not going to mention that Deng is more of an abuser of getting his shots set up by others.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 07:47 PM) This is the only thing I'm going to bother responding to. If he's traded immediately the base year compensation isn't a factor, only after we acquire him. That's the whole point of a sign-and-trade, it wouldn't ever be an option if the base year compensation rules applied immediately. A trade would very easily be feasible financially with any number of players, however there isn't a particularly good match on the Bulls in terms of talent. Nope. Say we give Josh Smith the 13 million he wants. So okay, for us, we could send them Hughes since he equals 13 million. It works perfectly for us, so woohoo. Not so fast, because Josh Smith would automatically become BYC, and yes it is a factor because he's signing the contract with Atlanta. So therefore, the 13 million we are sending does not equal the 6.5 million they are sending out. Therefore, trade does not work. So basically, with BYC, the outgoing contract would equal 100% to the new team the player is going to, but the team he is leaving only could worry about half of the outgoing contract.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 08:05 PM) Gotta love that 37.7% field goal percentage and 4.1 TO in the clutch too. And the fact that 61% of them were assisted so it's not like he's the one creating the shots. If you're on a team that plays a lot of close games like the Bulls did of course the #1 option is going to score a few times nearly by default. GM MIN +- +- FGA FG% 3PA 3P% FTA FT% PTS Asst'd REB AST T/O Blk STL CHI Deng 26 79 -38 -23 14.1 .435 0.6 .000 4.9 50% 14.7 50% 7.9 1.8 0.6 1.2 1.8 CHI Gordon 31 118 -52 -21 28.2 .377 9.8 .458 18.0 90% 42.0 61% 2.9 2.9 4.1 0.0 1.2 Stats suggest Gordon isn't afraid to shoot the ball unlike Deng, he's hot from the 3 point line when it comes down to it, hits his FT's and gets to the line moreso than what everyone wants to suggest, and that means getting to the line more than Deng, obviously scores more points as well. And yes, Gordon is assisted as the PG in the Bulls system carries the rock alot more. In the 4th, who do you have more faith in, Gordon or Deng? It's Gordon all the way. That's why numbers suggest Hinrich and Duhon were much better when Gordon was their guard counterpart. Deng does average much better than Gordon, but that's what happens when you play in the frontcourt and you're not a "midget". Gordon gets more assists in the clutch, but does also average more turnovers. That's what happens when they ask you to bail the team out. Deng is a better blocker which is expected. Deng gets more steals, but not much. Again, stats show, Deng goes quiet in crunch time. Keep in mind, Nocioni and Joe Smith were better scorers in the clutch last year too over Deng. Deng ranked around where bench players ranked which is not good for an 80 million dollar guy.

Looked it up this year, Boston was ranked #2 defensively in Opponent's Points Per Game while ranking 11 offensively. SAS were ranked 2nd in defense, but 4th in offense. MIA the year before, 5th in defense, 10th in offense SAS the year before that was 1st in defense, and 8th in offense. I looked for just the past 10 years, but only 3 teams rated #1 overall defensively won rings. The most dominant team of that era, the LAL were 1, 19,7 in the 3 years they won the championship, defensively. Meanwhile in those same years, they were rated 4, 2, and 2 in those respective years offensively. Again, balance wins championships and history shows that. Not just defense, and not just offense. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

For people who say Gordon isn't clutch anymore, only LeBron, Kobe, Dirk and Manu were better scorers in the clutch. Deng is nowhere near 5th. http://82games.com/CSORT11.HTM As for top defensive teams winning the championship, um I'm pretty sure Boston didn't suck on offense or was even in the middle of the pack. Same goes for San Antonio the year before. I'd venture to guess, the champions for the past 25 years were above average offensive squads. And I'd venture to guess, not all of them or even half of them were #1 rated overall defensively.

QUOTE (SleepyWhiteSox @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 02:43 PM) That nitetrain post didn't merit a respone... Anyways, I already know the real answer, but I sure do hope pax actually has made some sort of real effort to maybe aquire Josh Smith. It's just too bad they're set at both guard spots as packaging tyrus and gordon and/or hinrich along with picks would have been nice to get him. I don't really know the financial paramaters, though. Still, if they're looking to unload him, pax should be trying. I doubt it, though. He had a hard enough time with the two obvious moves he needed to make this offseason (drafting Rose and extending Deng)... Your post doesn't deserve a response, but I'll respond anyway. Josh Smith is 99.9% unattainable for the Bulls. Not even worth looking into because if a S&T is done, he has BYC status. Read the CBA, find out salaries and tell me one way in which a Josh Smith is available for the Bulls. Nevermind that though, let's guess, he could be a big SG for the Chicago Bulls, though he would be playing out of position. At least he would be a great defender. Yes, because even after being rated #1 overall for 3 years in a row (with Kirk guarding SG's and Ben guarding PG's), that got us 3 championships. Oh wait, it only got us 1 playoff round victory. That's the problem with Chicago teams in general, fans love to concentrate on defense, defense, defense, because it shows off work ethic somehow, but don't want to think or realize that you can be rated #1 overall and still not win s*** if you have no offense which is the problem with the Bears and Bulls and was the problem with the Blackhawks when Dale first took over. Defense doesn't win championships, balance does. And the reason why I think Gordon should get the same contract if not more is because he has proven to be this team's best player over the past 4 years. He's had the team's best work ethic, and has improved his defensive game, regardless of the false facts some fans want to hang onto saying Scott Skiles knows nothing about defense or the Bulls. He's also a lot more dynamic of a player than Deng is. The problem is not Gordon wanting more, the problem is the Bulls rewarding Deng for a s*** season and way overpaying him.

Well reading the same article, it gave me the idea of going after Zach Greinke. It would take a bit, but I think for this team, it would be worth it. I also think he would come cheaper than Justin Duscherer.

QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 12:41 PM) I dont remember Skiles ever talking about Gordon being an elite defender ever. I remember him talking about Kirk that way, but never Ben I didn't say elite, I said above average. He's said it a couple of times in post game interviews when he's guarding PG's. He's also been quoted in the Sun-times before talking about how Ben really had terrible technique defending his rookie year but has really improved to the point where he's not a liability and actually is above average guarding the 1 spot.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 11:56 AM) What's Scott Skiles doing these days? Um, coaching in the NBA.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 30, 2008 -> 11:52 AM) Did you seriously say Ben Gordon's defense was above average? He is easily the worst defender on the team. Unless being caught 8 feet out of position and leaving your guy wide open behind the 3 point line counts as "good defense" because you had the presence of mind to hurry back and fail to block it. Sorry but Scott Skiles, seems to disagree with you. And it's against PG's as well.