sircaffey

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Feb 14, 2007 -> 03:09 PM) You could expect more all you want, but give an example of what that more is and why you would expect it. Carlos Lee is not as good of a baseball player as you may think. He is a good DH perhaps, but that is about it. He is not at all like a spider monkey and he is never jacked up on Mountain Dew. 2 negatives right there on Carlos Lee. Can't play a lick of defense, but can run the bases and gave the White Sox a valuable speedy leadoff man that they needed, not another right handed station to station base clogger. Minor league compensation. Like I've said before, I find it hard to believe that Pods/Viz is all the Brewers were willing to give up for Carlos. Again, like I said before, if that's all that the Brewers were willing to give up, and there were no other leadoff option available through trade, then I don't blame KW for making the deal. However, I don't believe that to be the case. Your hatred for Carlos is evident. I get it, but he's ten times the ball player Pods it. And yes, Pods definitely fit into what they were trying to do. No one is arguing that.

QUOTE(bad at best @ Feb 14, 2007 -> 02:15 PM) Does anyone know why we didnt trade Garcia before the 2006 season while he had 2yrs on his contract? Gaarcia would have had more value and we had McCarthy ready for the 5th spot (and i dont want to hear any "he wasnt ready", because her was a hell of alot more ready than any of the people competing for the 5th spot this year) You don't want to hear it, but its the same reason Vazquez was acquired. They felt Brandon wasn't ready. QUOTE(southsideirish @ Feb 14, 2007 -> 01:24 PM) Then what do you expect to get in return for a .300-30-100-10 guy who is also one of the dumbest baseball players around, has no heart, can't play a lick of defense in FREAKING LEFT FIELD, and has issues running the bases? How many more times would I have had to see him kill a rally by getting picked off. Freaking moron of a baseball player = Carlos Lee. But he sure can hit. I will give him that. I'd expect more than someone who also can't play a lick of defense in "FREAKING LEFT FIELD" as well as can't hit.

QUOTE(bigruss22 @ Feb 14, 2007 -> 11:07 AM) And i cant remember who but somebody posted asking for a major trade that included majorleague talent that KW was succesful, the Seattle trade for Garcia was succesful in my mind, yes they got some good young players but none are stars while Garcia was one of our top pitchers for every year he was with us(except last year) he helped us win a world series with great pitching in the post season, and now brought us back a good prospect and a coop project with his value being the lowest in his career That was me. I didn't ask for a trade that turned out successful. I asked for a trade that at the time that it was made, everyone agreed Kenny made a fantastic deal (value wise). The Garcia trade with Seattle was MUCH debated.

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Feb 14, 2007 -> 02:18 AM) I don't know how anyone can say the Carlos Lee trade was a good one. We could of gotten Pods/Vizcaino and atleast a pretty damn good prospect for him. And it would still be a "salary dump" Just because it was a salary dump doesn't mean you cant get more value than what we did get. And I'm fairly positive there were a bunch of deals out there that were better than what we got out of it. That being said, we did win the WS so even though it wasn't a good trade, that kind of takes any sting someone could have from it away. 100% true.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Feb 14, 2007 -> 12:46 AM) Ok, but at times, you always can't have the best of both worlds. The reason I brought that deal up was because of the value that Carlos had, yet the unspectacular package that was brought back. Now, while the value of Lee was probably not reached, the trade was a huge success. If we don't make that deal, there isn't a chance we win it all. Sometimes there is more to a deal than just "Value." Williams used a chip that he had(Lee) and turned him into two pieces that he thought we needed(A leadoff hitter and bullpen help). Williams also knew the budget the 05 club was working on, and understood to obtain the players he wanted (Hermanson-Gooch-Duke), bigger salaries would have to be moved. Sure it would have been nice to re-stock the farm with the Lee trade, but would that have really helped in 2005? Williams had a plan that off-season to win NOW, and getting Pods-Viz was a way to further that goal. Sorry if that is a little odd, I am talking on the phone as I write this. I understand that portion. But we're really not discussing that. That's a whole entirely different topic, imo. That logic basically suggests that all of KW's trades were good ones. He's very good at addressing needs and going out and filling them. In theory they are helpful deals, but that doesn't make them "good" deals. But that's really not what we're discussing here so I'll stay away from that. Just because the Pods trade turned out to be a success, doesn't mean it couldn't have been more successful. Likewise, the Garcia trade could turn into a steal, but it could have been that much more of a steal if equal value was met. Now if that's all the Brewers were willing to give, and there were no other leadoff options on the market, then I accept the fact that KW had to make that deal. However, I don't believe that to be the case. Judging by KW's main trades, I think he just settled for Pods/Viz. That's where the problem lies. Continually undervaluing your own players and overvaluing other players is not a good trend.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Feb 13, 2007 -> 11:59 PM) While I don't totally disagree with you, I am interested to hear how you would rate the Podsednik trade? Value wise, I personally rate it the worst out of the major deals KW has made. I struggle to believe that the going rate for a .300-30-100-10 guy with 2 yrs left on his contract at an affordable price was a one tool LF and a 6/7th inning guy? I find it very very hard to believe that's all we could have gotten for Carlos. I love how it all turned out (AJ/Gooch). Overall, we definitely were better for making such a deal, but we did not get fair compensation for Carlos, imo. I think the salary savings and personal problems Ozzie and KW had with Carlos affected the "need" to get Carlos off the team a bit much.

QUOTE(FlaCWS @ Feb 13, 2007 -> 10:52 PM) Listen, I think Rosenthal makes a valid point about the low asking price and Freddy's motivation in a contract year. But you have to give Kenny the benefit of the doubt. In '05 no one thought we got enough for Carlos Lee. No one thought the signings of AJ or Dye meant much of anything. Guys like Jenks and Thornton were pretty much discarded by their old teams. Somehow Kenny saw something in these guys. His track record speaks for itself over the past two years. I don't mean to sound like a Ken Williams apologist, but he absolutely deserves the benefit of the doubt. And it'll be a few years before we can truly evaluate this deal, because it'll depend on what Gio does, if anything, in the majors. The point really isn't if this deal turns out good for us 5 years down the road. The point in question is whether we could have gotten more. Trades shouldnt just be evaluated by long term effect, but whether or not true value was met at the time of the trade. As far as the benefit of the doubt with KW goes, I agree if this were small signings or little trades, but KW hasn't really proven that he's capable of getting or giving real worth for quality major league talent. Does anyone just love any of his trades involving quality major league talent? Every deal is, "Oh we'll see in five years." That's not a very confident thought. I think if anything, KW doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt with moves like this until he actually makes one that works out.

Move everyone up one spot.

DFA

The Cubs won't let Floyd get to that many ABs. Murton should split a good amount of time throughout the OF.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 14, 2007 -> 06:02 PM) I really want to rip this post apart, but I have gone back and forth with you so many times, and you still don't seem to get it, so I'll just leave it alone. No kidding. Absolutely clueless post.

Gooch did improve slightly last season in his HR, BB:K ratio, AVE. I see about the same slight improvement from him next year at the tune of: .285/.360/.440 20 HR, 70 RBI, 12 SB We're going to need improvement from Iguchi if Pods is still leading off.

With RJ one major difference was the demand for an extension. For a 43 year old with back and knee issues, that's a huge risk.

Where would you bat Tejada? 2nd? Pods, Tejada, Dye, Thome, Pauly, AJ, Crede, Iguchi, Anderson? That's one way to make up for some pitching loss...Pods needs to get off the team. He's out of place in a lineup like that.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Dec 28, 2006 -> 05:04 PM) So you honestly believe the Sox would be willing to shell out 6 years (even though they refuse to go any higher than 3 years with pitchers) and $100M+ to Buehrle? Given the organizations history of giving out contracts and their continued stance on pitching contracts I don't see how anyone could believe Buehrle will be retained beyond '07. The market has never been this way with pitchers in the past. This organization has been able to get away with 3 year deals in the past, but you just can't do that anymore. Things change. If there is a pitcher out there that this organization is going to give 6 years to it'd be the most durable SP in the majors for the past 4-5 season in Buehrle. I'm not saying you'll see a whole bunch of 6 year deals (not even 2 for that matter), but in order to keep the rotation stable in the next handful of years, someone is going to need to be resigned, and given Buehrle's history (performance and health) I think the Sox will make an exception.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 28, 2006 -> 04:41 PM) I think it'll be Garland and Contreras since I believe they're signed the longest. I know Contreras isn't being dealt as he's got a NTC for this season. This isn't a franchise that'll extend Mark Buehrle for six years at 100 million. If they do extend him it'll be because he took a huge discount, IMO, but I don't know that that'll do it since the Sox don't believe in contracts for pitchers passed three years. Garland is a FA in 2 years, Contreras as well. The Sox will have to sign someone long-term unless they want to go extremely young and unproven. I highly doubt they will resign Conteras being that he'll probably be 48 in 2009. Garland or Buehrle are the obvious choices, unless the young talent (Floyd, Haeger, Sisco, Gonzalez, Broadway, etc.) progress much faster than expected. The Sox were also a team that wasn't going to trade away 2007 talent. The market changed that. The market will change the Sox thinking on long-term deals for SP or else the Sox wont be able to contend for a while.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 28, 2006 -> 04:35 PM) The White Sox aren't extending Mark Buehrle. If the Sox have 4-5 capable young pieces to move into the rotation in the next 4-5 years, then I could definitely see them spending for someone like Buehrle to anchor the rotation. I highly doubt they go all young, and unproven in the next 2 years. They'll keep someone around long-term. Most likely Jon or Mark.

QUOTE(sox-r-us @ Dec 28, 2006 -> 04:34 PM) Weaver should get the same $ as Lilly and that Ex Seattle guy right? I doubt it.

The solution for no fan uproar...Trade Vazquez. Frees up a lot of money, and you can offer an extension to Buehrle and be able to afford it with the young guys moving in. Makes sense if the Mets are interested.

QUOTE(Craig Grebeck @ Dec 25, 2006 -> 09:53 PM) He said it involved three big names, and it was "close". Anyone have any ideas? Buehrle, Contreras, and Garland for prospects

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 24, 2006 -> 10:28 PM) We keep going back & forth on this deal, but the counter-point to that is to say the exact same thing about Danks. As far as I can tell, Danks has never pitched over 155 innings in a season. He could be a concern just as much...ya never know. Not to mention Danks hasn't had the same success in the minors as Brandon did. Time will tell. This very well could be the defining trade of Kenny Williams. Hopefully it works out.

QUOTE(thedoctor @ Dec 24, 2006 -> 04:58 PM) i'd like to see a guy like pineiro brought in to compete for the fifth spot. couldn't hurt. I would almost count on a veteran SP being brought in. I'd love to bring in Pineiro cheaply. Not necessarily to win the job, but insurance never hurt. Let's face it, I think we'll see 3 pitchers make a start in the 5th spot this season. Hopefully one steps up.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 11:51 PM) I didnt know that BMAC was the key to us being in the playoff hunt. "The" key? No. "A" key? Yes. It was more about the 5th SP. We all knew one of the SP were going to be traded, and that Bmac was going to step into the 5th SP. Now, we have a gapping hole at the backend of the rotation.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 11:21 PM) Haven't there been enough teams in the Central make it a race after being 8 games back to show that you don't give up when being 8, or 15 games back at the AS break? No. The last thing I would want this organization to do at this time would be to put blind hope into a couple of rare occurences in recent history. As long as we are going on recent history in the AL Central, I think it's blatently obvious that the White Sox are not a second half team.

Can't wait for the deadline to roll around when we're 8 games back...Let the minor leaguers start rolling in then.