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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 20, 2014 -> 04:05 PM) You cannot possibly tell me that Jake Peavy had no injury history prior to the Sox acquiring him. I don't believe he had any shoulder or arm issues. I could be wrong but the only one I remember is when they acquired him and he had an ankle issue that was resolved in an appropriate time. One injury not to his arm, that was resolved in an appropriate time is not a history of injury.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 20, 2014 -> 03:51 PM) The post I replied to did not assign fault, it simply noted that Dunn and Danks were the 2 biggest problems in the last 4 years. I felt Rios's failure and Peavy's injury have to be on that list as they sabotaged the "all-in" season as well. And of course, its worth noting that "deals which seem good at the time" isn't a standard by which a successful GM will be evaluated, but instead it's going to be whether in the long term those deals were correct. If your team spends $100 million per year and half that money is spent on people who get injured or massively underperform their expectation, then a reasonable conclusion is that your GM isn't doing a very good job of making player decisions even if they appear solid at the time. I agree that the GM should be evaluated based on the players under performance. However, I disagree that it's a reasonable conclusion that injuries should be held against them, if there is no injury history. That is an impossibility to predict. Especially, when the deals were team favorable at the time. the only deal that was really a calculated risk that failed was Rios. when doing evaluations you are really assigning praise for good things and fault for the bad things. If you say bad things happened but did not assign them the fault, then it isn't their fault and the evaluation of the GM would have to be positive.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 20, 2014 -> 03:45 PM) Eduardo Escobar has turned himself into a solid defensive shortstop and has already put up 2 WAR on this season. He's effectively been a $10 million+ player this year. His OPS this year is also >700, which isn't bad from the shortstop spot. It's not bad. But he is still mostly a part time player. I don't think anyone still looks at him and says "I'd really like to have him." He was still worth the chance that Liriano could have helped. The Sox aren't really worse off without him.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 20, 2014 -> 03:25 PM) Peavy's injury and 2011 Rios fit on that list also along with the other 2 deals blowing up. How can fault a GM for weird injuries in pitchers without a history of arm injuries? Neither deal was one of the crazy 7 year deals. They were considered good deals at the time.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 20, 2014 -> 03:22 PM) I would say Gio Gonzalez, Chris Young, Dan Hudson, Eduardo Escobar, and Nick Masset all have amounted to something or another at one point in time. Gonzalez is really the only one maybe Young to a lesser extent. Masset was ok. Hudson only pitched 50 or so after the Sox and Escobar has played in only about 180 with an OPS of 668. That really isn't much compared to all the moves.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 20, 2014 -> 03:11 PM) Dunn. Keppinger and Downs, to a lesser extent. Swisher. Javy. Edwin Jackson. Manny Ramirez. Liriano, Myers and Youkilis. Griffey, Jr. Dunn was not a marginal upgrade. At the time he was one of the most dependable LH HR bats in the league Downs was a very dependable LH reliever, especially LOOGy Keppinger was basucally Gillaspie. A 300 hitter with a fair glove. all the rest cost no money and didn't create any mess what so ever.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 20, 2014 -> 11:13 AM) No one is against spending money in FA in general, but many are against spending it simply for the sake of spending it, because that's how you end up painted in a corner. Hahn's plan is much larger than Chris Sale and Jose Abreu and how both fit into a "contention window" -- it's about building a healthy organization that can enjoy sustained success. Panicking and buying marginal upgrades at market rate simply because they were the best available is precisely how we ended up in this "mess" to begin with. I think that, fortunately, KW's willingness to pay out the nose for upgrades without long-term commitments has afforded us the ability to crawl out of the "rock bottom" phase of the rebuild sooner, but that doesn't mean we should forget the big picture in year two and start acting like Jim Hendry all of a sudden. Who are these "marginal upgrade" players that caused the mess?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 20, 2014 -> 01:32 PM) “No baseball player will have a normal MRI,” Dines said. “If someone has a congenitally small ulnar collateral ligament, even if they tear it and you reconstruct it, you can always make it bigger. And it’s almost a foregone conclusion these days that a young pitcher who throws in the upper 90s will at some point have a reconstruction anyway. “When I read the reports about Aiken, I thought that there might be some concern about the bony anatomy where the ligament attaches, perhaps the medial epicondyle. If that is damaged or abnormal, you’re left with less bone there to reconstruct the ligament, and that can mean that a reconstruction won’t always work. They must have thought, for some reason, that a future reconstruction would not take.” PTAC? from si.com story on Aiken The statement is accurate for the reconstruction. You need to drill a substantial size hole in the medial condyle (not really the epicondyle but that's semantics, it's the same area). the tendon that is used to replace the ligament is much larger than the original so there needs to be room with which to work. However, I have never been involved in a case where the condyle was too small. It's conceivable, I guess, but I've never seen nor heard of it. Maybe in a case where he had "little leaguer's elbow"as a kid where there is damage to the growth plate on the medial side of the elbow..

QUOTE (bmags @ Aug 20, 2014 -> 09:02 AM) Considering the amount of money that guy makes for being Ditka the personality and not Ditka the coach, I think criticizing the personality is beyond fair game. Fair game, yes. Entertaining sports radio that I want to listen to, no.

You'll enjoy the interview. He's a real good guy.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 03:08 PM) He'll strike out the first nine, then they all just give up. I saw Mark Prior do this in a spring game against the white sox. He struck out the first nine guys in a lineup including Durham, Thomas and Ventura. It was the single best pitching performance I have ever seen live.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 01:31 PM) This is my biggest concern with bringing De Aza back, but I also don't think he is a valueless player. That's the hardest part - at what point do you just say "we'll take the stuff you're offering" instead of getting absolutely nothing? I imagine these are the kinds of offers they have for Dunn and De Aza and it's just hard to accept those when your back isn't up against the wall. Come September 1st, I honestly do not expect either De Aza or Dunn to be on the White Sox roster. I agree that neither will be back. ADA is not a bad player but doesn't really fit. He would make too much money next year for a 4th OF. The Sox could let him go and re-sign him for less than the arb figure if no one else picks him up but I think someone will as he does have value.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 11:13 AM) I did read the article and it wasn't bad, but good journalists do not open an article like this: You're a professional jounalist, you can think of a better word to use there. I agree. that's why I said I actually agreed with him on the points but have a different take on them. He is pandering to the over reaction and drama people with the first part of the article.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 12:38 PM) De Aza is the backup CF in that scenario. Jordan Danks is the emergency CF and he'll be stashed in Charlotte in that scenario. If for some silly reason they bring Garcia back he's another body that can fill in out there. The problem is De Aza is going to be making around 4-6 million right? That's kinda pricey for a 4th OF. I think there is a decent chance he is traded around Christmas for bullpen arms or a Viciedo type another org has given up on. Sorry, mistyped. I don't think they are comfortable with ADA as the backup CF. I wouldn't be. They need someone on the roster who is a capable backup CF.

QUOTE (Jake @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 08:57 AM) I wouldn't have said this in the recent past, but I think of ADA, Tank, Sierra, and Danks, Viciedo is least likely to be here next year. I have a suspicion that ADA and Sierra will both be here next year. Perhaps both will be in reserve roles I'm not sure the team can do that. If those two are your reserves, there is no backup CF. I don't think they would be comfortable with ADA as a CF for season.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 19, 2014 -> 09:13 AM) Murray Chass is an insufferable nitwit who needs to go away. Also, related, to show how much of a troll Chass has become: http://deadspin.com/murray-chass-is-everyt...ll-o-1493277221 I'm not even going to bother reading the article. Chass can pound sand. Actually, I agree with everything he said. However, my point of view is that Reinsdorf is acting in the best long term interest of MLB. A salary cap and floor like the other leagues is the best way to keep the league viable in the future. While Manfred has done many good things for baseball, he has avoided this topic because he knows it will create a work stoppage. I don't see this changing and it could cause financial problems down the road.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 18, 2014 -> 09:57 PM) Definitely rushed him for trade reasons. To my eyes, it looks like he has changed his mechanics a bit, which has caused everything to flatten out Could be because of something still going on with the ankle. Changing the stride and he is changing other things. I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2014 -> 06:39 PM) IMO the White Sox were a lot more willing to push Sale than the Nats were with Stras. Had that team not fallen apart I think it seemed clear they'd continue starting Sale in the playoffs if they had the chance. Stras was coming off an injury as well. That would make me more cautious.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2014 -> 11:37 AM) The other real problem with this logic, as the Nats have demonstrated, is that they might well have given up a chance to win the world series by shutting him down. They expected "oh we've got great young talent we'll be right back next year" but then they had some other injuries and missed the playoffs completely the next year. Right. Then comes the 0questions of priorities. Are you more concerned with the possibility of a world series or of the health of your players. Because the other side is that they make the playoffs don't win the world series and he hurts his arm. What would people say about the team then.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Aug 18, 2014 -> 11:16 AM) I didn't think the limit was necessarily that low but I think they could have gone about it smarter and had him skip a few starts throughout the season. If they skipped him 3 times that would be another 20 innings he could have pitched in the playoffs. True. The other side is would they have made it with him skipping start. Or is it in the best interst of his health to skip starts that often. It would effect his strength and endurance. I don't think there is any one answer. It needs to be by an individual case. With Rodon there is no injury it's a matter of increasing workload. I'm not sure that skipping starts in the middle would be as effective as a constant load. You may be doing him a disservice by throwing 50 innings and resting, 50 more than resting. If a runner is training for a marathon the y don't take off time in the middle to build endurance they slowly increase the distance and speeed. It may work to skip start but I'm not sure that'sthe best for his long term health.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Aug 18, 2014 -> 11:07 AM) They shut him down at 159.1. He didn't pitch after September 7th and didn't pitch in the playoffs. I think that's what was the problem to a lot of people is that 160 seems low and it could have really cost them a shot in the playoffs. I can see that. The 160 may have been reasonable depending on how long he missed and his max limit prior to the injury. His long term health should be the priority.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Aug 18, 2014 -> 10:08 AM) He threw 132.2 in 2013 and 98.2 in 2014. With his college, MiLB, and MLB innings this year, he should end up right around 150. I think it would be perfectly reasonable to expect him to start 26 or 27 games next year and end around 170-180 innings. He would then be set up good to go for 200 in 2016 when the Sox should for sure be ready to compete. This sounds reasonable. Wasn't the Strasburg controversy over a 180 inning limit?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 18, 2014 -> 09:46 AM) Right, I'm referencing next year. This year, for all intents and purposes, won't matter come September, so I'm guessing he'll come up and work 2-4 innings at a time, perhaps even on some kind of schedule still. Even next year he will be on an inning limit.

QUOTE (oneofthemikes @ Aug 18, 2014 -> 08:08 AM) I think that, at this point, Carlos will start 2015 in Chicago. But odds are that he isn't going to be a 200+ inning pitcher right away. So, I think that I would rather see him coming out of the pen to start the season to avoid a Strasburg situation from a few years ago when they shut him down for the remainder of the season. I think that spending April and May in the pen would allow him to conserve enough innings that he could be a starter the rest of the year and really help out down the stretch for a playoff run. Very true. He will not make 33 starts next year. I'm not sure what is max innings was in college but he will be on an inning limit. You can't go too far over a recent max inning level too far in a single year.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 18, 2014 -> 08:23 AM) http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92849 Considering it came from the horse's mouth, I think you can be pretty assured that Rodon is a starter. You will know by how many innings/pitches they allow him in his AAA starts. If he is still limited to 60 pitches or 3 innings, he will not start games this year, he will be in the pen.