ptatc

QUOTE (knightni @ Jun 20, 2010 -> 10:46 PM) So, does this mean then, that they will want to work on his delivery? Many pitchers were taught this as kids. Especially on the West Coast where Tom House is based now. His philosophy has really permeated the baseball culture out there. This is an offshoot of his theories. This is a very difficulty thing to change in the biomechanics. It's not just a tweak it's a major overhaul. They would need to change the position of his forearm just before the cocking phase of his motion. This could change everything from breaking ball rotation, the velocity of his fastball, to the 3/4 delivery he has. My guess is they may try to change it a bit but they will mostly leave it alone because he learned it as a kid and he will be a totally different pitcher without it.

QUOTE (Pants Rowland @ Jun 14, 2010 -> 11:15 PM) This thread reminds me of the M*A*S*H* episode when Hawkeye and Trapper invented a doctor, Captain Tuttle, just to mess with Frank and Hot Lips. What? Tuttle wasn't invented. He died in a mine field bring help to orphans!

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 8, 2010 -> 09:23 AM) Project Prospect has a ton of details on Sale, and concludes that they're more worried about his mechanics than impressed by his numbers. They think long term he winds up a closer. I'm extremely impressed with this analysis. The late forearm turn over as they call it, is the delayed external rotation in a biomechanical model. It put a great deal of stress on the shoulder as the excessive internal rotation forces the humeral head posterior in the shoulder and the subsequent external rotation needed for pitching forces the humeral head anterior. This extra bit of translation causes a gradual stretching of the shoulder joint and eventually loosens the shoulder. This in turn causes increased wear on the shoulder stabilizers such as the labrum, rotator cuff and ligaments. His is not a bad a Strasburg's whose external rotation is further delayed.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 20, 2010 -> 10:42 AM) Exactly. Enjoy the good times or you are missing the point of watching the games in the first place. Does anyone enjoy watching baseball for the sake of the game? I know I still really enjoy just watching a game because it's still the best sport out there. I guess the other question would be can you enjoy a game even if the Sox lose? If it's a well played game it still can be fun to watch.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jun 18, 2010 -> 11:28 PM) Remind me how much we're paying you to be here? I've got it from a very reliable source that the check is in the mail.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 18, 2010 -> 05:05 PM) If he's going to pitch, I assume that means this has more to do with general soreness and a little fluid associated with a non serious injury. Fluid just means inflammation. I'm sure they are treating it with NSAIDS and ultrasound and the extra day or so is to let the meds take effect. Meds like ibuprofen are only pain killers until they have been in your system on a consistent basis for 5 days or so. This is probably the reason for the extra time to allow the anti-inflammatory effect to kick in. Sorry for the quick and inconsistent post. I'm in Boston for a convention and can't get to a computer often. Just getting back from Fenway for the Red Sox-Dodgers game. I saw two young pitchers that got really hit around. The score was 10-6 and neither pitcher made it through the 6th.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 17, 2010 -> 11:09 AM) The problem is, the Rangers method is kind of stupid, since the development would have to start at a far younger age to ensure guys muscles are ready to handle it all. Might work a little easier with the high school guys, but college players have to go through quite the transformation and obviously at the very least it needs to be started from the low-minors onward. I think removing guys because of the sake of a pitch count is dumb, you have to watch for things like stress innings, mechanics, etc, but you also have to do what you can to ensure your guys aren't beat up. The reality is these guys make a lot more money than they did in the past so you are benefited by doing what you can to try to reduce the chances of an injury. In the old days, they didn't make tens of millions of dollars so if a guy got hurt, a team didn't have to worry about all of the money it had sank away and how it had ruined there budget. This is wrong due to the factors you mentioned earlier. The pitchers have always been conditioned to throw a certain number of pitches. Also, many of the pitchers cannot handle that type of workload and you will injure them. As I stated earlier they haven't been weeded out in the minors and with the money they make the teams don't want to take that chance and I don't blame them. It's just like running. Some people can log hundred of miles a week without injury and other will get injured with 20 miles per week.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 16, 2010 -> 11:43 PM) How did the pitchers in the old days throw so many pitches and have long careers? Seems like the modern starting pitcher is very brittle. In the old days pitchers threw alot more pitches and innings in the minor leagues. There were also fewer MLB and many MiLB teams. If a pitcher was going to blow out his arm he did it in the minors and we never heard of them. The ones who couldn't handle the workload were weeded out before the majors.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jun 16, 2010 -> 09:49 PM) very good to hear, maybe Ptac can add a little to what the MRI could show and what further tests might be done if it continues... to me the most ridiculous thing was having him warm up so quickly at home a few weeks back, Hawk and Stone said it was the quickest they saw a SP ever warm up, should have started Pena for an inning or two if necessary MRI basically stands for "more radiographic income" They really don't show much except significant muscle, cartilage or ligament tears. In the case of the shoulder it's the rotator cuff, labrum or capsule respectively. This works by contrasting fluid against tissue in the area. If it doesn't show anything, this there is no significant tear but it doesn't mean there is nothing wrong.

QUOTE (earthshiner @ Jun 16, 2010 -> 01:42 AM) I'd give it to Junior. No one was close to having all 5 tools like him. When he was with the mariners, no one the game could top his overall skill set I'll still give it to Bonds, Griffey couldn't run like him. With the injuries Griffey had Bonds is the clear winner for a career.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 14, 2010 -> 03:43 PM) Oh, I also love watching Juan Uribe bat. Every time I watch a game at San Fran, it amazes me how Bonds hit so many home runs there. That field is just mammoth. I don't care if he was on all the steroids in the world....lots of our players have been juiced up, and no one else could hit it out to right center there. Mostly, because he was the most gifted baseball player in the last few decades. There was no one better in the late 80's-90's. Great great ballplayer, piece of crap as a person. I don't think Ive met a worse one, although Gary Sheffield is right there with him.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 15, 2010 -> 09:30 PM) Who? Yankee fans? I don't recall anything of any substance that's ever linked Pedro to steroids. There were rumors going around, nothing ever substantiated. Mostly, in house, similar to the Clemens ones at the time.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 15, 2010 -> 07:55 PM) Pedro did his thing at the peak of the steroid era. Pedro's '98-2000 > Ubaldo's '10 Many people think he was benefitting from taking them as well. that is why he had the great years in the "steriod era."

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jun 15, 2010 -> 04:46 PM) Even MORE odd: just looked up the numbers and Castro is 3 for 7 with a HR lifetime vs Duke (AJ's 1 for 3). Also: this year at Indy lefties hit .274 off Lincoln and righties hit .156. My guess: AJ's a little sore after being hit in back to back games and Ozzie's giving him an extra day to recoup. Maybe he's sore from actually throwing two runners out in the same game.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 15, 2010 -> 03:03 PM) He has some of the best pure stuff ever. But right now Jimenez is putting up the single greatest season in baseball history (from a pitching perspective, imo). After watching the last game, I'm still not crazy about his mechanics. It will be interesting to see how his shoulder holds up over the next few years.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 15, 2010 -> 01:27 PM) Thanks very much for the explanation. That is very interesting and I respect your professional opinion that he could have done some things to maybe prevent the severity of it. I also like the fact you said he's far from alone in ignoring the problem cause at times the back feels better. It's a shame. Why do you think my friend at 30 needed simple back surgery and he wound up using a cane? Was the doc a butcher or do things happen? Sorry, just had a person with a seizure in the lobby. Some injuries do not respond to rehab well. Crede's case was one of slowly worsening due to cumulative variables. These usually respond very well with rehab. If it's a traumatic injury these don't always go as well. No back surgeries are simple. They need to cut through many layers of muscle, fascia and bone to get to the disc. The variables with the recovery mostly depnd on how long a nerve was compressed and the eventual damage to the nerve. Just because he is using a cane now doesn't mean he always will. Nerves heal for up to 18 months after the compression is released. So there is always hope if he continues to do the wrok necessary. This is where most people fail. There is always the possiblity that the surgeon messed up. It doesn't happen often but it does.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 15, 2010 -> 01:02 PM) OK, educate me some more on this. Are you saying Joe specifically contributed to his own injury? What am I missing here? I never read anything like Joe could have prevented his problems. I always thought as a baseball player who takes a zillion swings a day in the cages and bends over to field grounder after ground, s*** happens to the back. You said "it was his fault he had a back injury." I find that a little harsh. If you are a medical professioal you are blaming the patient for incurring an injury? WTF? And I didn't know fathom was kidding. It sounded like a backhanded rip of Joe and it wasn't in green. I see no problem defending these guys even on a meaningless in the big scheme of things message board. I have no problem with defending the players from 05. I for one didn't ever think I would see a World Series title from the Sox having been a fan since the 70's. I will cherish it always. Crede was and is one of my favorite players to watch due to his defense. That is one reason I was so disappointed in the way he handled his back problems. He began to have back problems and by poor advice from someone (runmor was his agent but that is not substantiated) went outside the organization and was treated by other health care professionals. The pain decreased but he did not take care of the cause of the problem. This is common in everyone's back problems. They hurt the pain decreases and they slack off in the rehab. The pain returns and the cycle is repeated until a major injury results. This is the most common scenario and these are the majority of patients I see. It keeps me in practice but it is a frustrating scenario to know that most of these problems could have been prevented. I don't expect the everyday person off the street to devote their lives to preventing the severe back injuries. However, as you stated, the baseball player is susceptible to these and as soon as his back started to bother him, he should have been devoted to preventing the problem from worsening. As a professional whose superb play is based on physical health I was hoping for more. All this being said, Crede is not the only ballplayer who falls in this scenario. Many others have. So I don't necessarily blame him for it but I am dissappointed in the way he handled it.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jun 15, 2010 -> 11:32 AM) Since turning 30 and prior to being acquired by the White Sox, Kotsay had hit .263 in 1184 at bats from 2006 to mid-2009. His White Sox batting average is .242, bringing his post-30 batting average to an overall .260 clip. Since turning 30, AJP is hitting .277. I'm not really sure at this point, they are the same basic player. They used to resemble one another more. Offensively. You can tolerate these numbers if they have value defensively, especially at catcher. AJP while he cannot throw runners out is outstanding a calling games, making pitchers comfortable and blocking pitches.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 15, 2010 -> 11:27 AM) I don't think it's wrong to defend a WS hero when somebody is mocking him for what? Having a bad back. It's not his fault he has a bad back. What's wrong with sticking up for a hero? The World Series is uh, a big deal. Not to be picky but it was his fault he had a back injury. He wasn't injured in a car collision or some other "accident." He had back problems and did nothing about it until he ruptured a disc. People can prevent the majority of back injuries, they just usually do nothing about it until it's too late. Ok, medical professional stepping off his high horse. Continue with discussion.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 15, 2010 -> 08:32 AM) Ugh, you keep comparing 05 Sox players to the best players in Cub history, when they aren't even close to the same situation. Ron Santo is a borderline HOF player who spent his whole 15 year career on the North Side, but stopped playing 36 years ago. Joe Crede would never be close to sniffing a HOF vote, but is a player still trying to play in the majors, so he is being discussed in context to the present day. No one here ever says Crede did nothing to help us win the 05 title, I wish he never played here. Sox fans will always remember him for his contributions to a WS title and 9 solid seasons here, especially even more as time passes. But they will also remember that a back injury kept him from reaching his full potential unfortunately. Blocking out his last year? Or as a Sox fan do you not want to admit it?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 14, 2010 -> 12:33 PM) I agree with you 100%. Good ballplayer, piece of crap as a human being. No doubt he would do it "to get an edge."

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jun 14, 2010 -> 09:55 AM) The Pirates have lost eight games in a row. If we don't sweep, it's a disappointment. It's just the fact of that streak that guarantees that the sox will break it. The Sox always do it. Remeber the year Baltimore started out the season with a 20 some game losing streak?

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jun 13, 2010 -> 12:00 PM) I don't think that matters to a lot of people. There's a mentality that if you weren't here in 2005, you have nothing to offer this organization in the future.. I think it's more that people are comfortable with established MLB veterans as opposed to the unknown of MiLB players. Some of this is due to the lack of production from the players coming up from our system. It makes people gun shy. I, personally, believe you need 1-2 people from your system each year to come up a learn in the MLB.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jun 13, 2010 -> 01:06 AM) In some ways, yes, and in others, no. Andruw Jones: No. He was good when he was healthy. Now he's not, so now he's not good anymore. But he wasn't expected to remain healthy. No anomaly. Alex Rios & PK: No. They are very talented players who have shown what they can do in the past. They won't continue to be as amazing as they have been, but they are perfectly capable of having very productive years. No anomaly. Peavy, Mark, Gavin: Yes, anomalies. They're better than this. Linebrink: No, because he can be serviceable if not outright dominating in the first half. It'll be an anomaly if he is somewhat respectable in the 2nd. Teahen and Pierre: No because they suck. Freddy: No because he's got balls and has shown he can pitch off a much depleted fastball before. Sergio: Yes, very much so, and he'll have to come down at some point. Jenks: Yes, because he's (if healthy) much better than he has been up to this point. Thornton, Putz, Pena: No, all doing just about what was expected. AJ, Beckham, Quentin: Yes, they're all better than the way they've played. I'm confident in AJ and Gordon reversing this, and I believe they currently are, but CQ may need another change of scenery. Williams, Kotsay, Vizquel, Nix, Castro, etc.: No, because this is about what was expected from them. In short, if we get a couple pieces, and if our good players who started the season by sucking can start playing better baseball, then we are a much, much better team. I would believe, however, that we'd be dead and buried if we played in the AL East however. But we don't, so good for us, because with a nice run we can catch those Twins. Not just that. We have lots of talented players on our roster. We're not making runs off players like Carlos Silva having improbably good seasons. We've got some really good players who aren't performing and a couple bad ones who also aren't performing. We need a bat or two and some rebounds. Lateral moves??? Who said anything about a lateral move? A lateral move, IMO, would be like trading a good setup man in Santos for a good RF in Cody Ross, for example. Yes, we address one area, but we deplete another. We don't need to make lateral moves when we can package a couple minor leaguers who are NOT contributing at all and deal them off for someone who is a veteran and currently producing. Please tell me how trading AJ for some MiLB player who best case scenario probably has to fight for a bench/relief spot on the 2011 ballclub hurts our future. Please tell me how you think MLB pitchers are going to bow down to Tyroid and not eat him alive. Please tell me how holding on to a capable major league player hurts our future. Please tell me how contending in general hurts our future. Do you really think Tyler Flowers is a good enough baseball player to warrant a free reign at the MLB level? Do you really think Tyler Flowers is so good that we should abandon any thoughts of trying to salvage the season just so this wunderkind can play? I don't. Not at all. Agreed. The problem with the Sox isn't that they have bad players. It's that they have good players who are really underperforming. It's still an extreme longshot that they can get back and win the division. However, this team is talented enough with a good core for next year if they fall short. Adding a couple of pieces would go a long way towards that. Trading AJ would be a good start since he is one of the underperformers and won't be back next year anyway. How much worse could Flowers hit? We might find out.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 11, 2010 -> 08:33 PM) You have to make Hahn GM if you're going to keep Ozzie, it's the only choice. Nobody else would deal with taking the job if they had to inherit a hot tempered, iffy (at best) strategical manager like him. Hahn has turned down some GM interviews recently. Maybe he saw it coming.