Dam8610

Three points I've seen here that I'd like to address: -"If you go after Martinez, you can go after other guys with a QO." Sure, but I doubt the White Sox are willing to add $100 million to the payroll, and that's close to what it would take to get to a team that would be considered favorites for the division. -"If Martinez comes at the right price, I'm on board." Me too! In fact, let's just skip this whole "free agency" process and bring him on at 2/$20. -"Martinez will still be performing at 39." Really?! Well, hell, forget 2/$20, let's sign him up for 4/$30 (don't want to take too much risk). Glad to know we now have ways to predict player performance 4 years out, though.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Nov 3, 2014 -> 02:11 PM) Are you really suggesting that you wouldn't sign a player like Sandoval because of Conor Gillaspie? Don't get me wrong, I like Sandoval and would want him on my team. That said, Sandoval is a left handed hitting 3B who struggles to hit lefties and whose performance has trended downward the last few years. Basically, he's Conor Gillaspie with a slightly better bat and much better glove. To me, that's a fairly marginal upgrade, and considering Gillaspie is a cost controlled asset and Sandoval is looking for $100 million over 6-7 years...I don't think Sandoval is going to be worth 3 more WAR per year than Gillaspie over the next 4-5 years. There are bigger holes to fill, like LF, 2-3 spots in the bullpen, and a mid rotation starter. For the price you'd pay for Sandoval, you could have something like Markakis and a solid pen arm or LaRoche and Billingsley instead. Like Balta said, if this were an 85+ win team, and 3B was the biggest hole, it would make sense to go after Sandoval. With this team, it makes no sense.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 01:22 PM) Have you noticed that the "top prospect" has not reached AAA yet and he has struggled defensively playing SS at A and AA levels??? I'm surprised no one else responded to this with all the prospect junkies on here. Anyway, Anderson fractured his right wrist in late June or early July, and still in his age 21 season mashed High A pitching to the tune of 120 wRC+, then AFTER the wrist injury, earned a promotion to AA where in a very small sample size (10 games), he mashed AA pitching to the tune of a 143 wRC+. QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 03:57 PM) So when do you contend ? How do you fill holes by doing nothing or spending on even riskier FA's or trading for the same types. They all have their baggage whether its, injuries or coming off bad seasons , or age. Get VMart , see if you can pry Michael Saunders from Seattle sign a starter and a closer put Bassitt in the pen or let him and Rodon start . VMart, fixed bullpen and a cheap Saunders seems doable . If you skimp anywhere let it be the starting pitching and look to build value with Danks, Noesi and Bassitt. The best way to do it is a steady building approach. In 2013, they won 63 games. In 2014, they won 73 games. You'd like to see a similar level of improvement in 2015, then move into full contention mode in 2016. Doing it that way will likely allow the team to hang on to its young, cost controlled assets and not make dumb decisions that they'll regret in the prime years of their contention window like giving a 36 year old a 4 year deal worth $18+ million per year. QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 04:21 PM) Although I don't like the Martinez option...I'd very much prefer Martinez to Headley (and I think Headley is going to get a lot more than Martinez). Up until you said this, I'd agreed with pretty much everything you'd said. Martinez is going to get $18+ million per year, Headley should be $15 million or under, even with the Yankees bidding on him.

QUOTE (AlSoxfan @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 10:21 AM) I'd rather see the Sox spend the money on Sandoval or Martin or one of the big 3 pitchers than Martinez. I'm not a big fan of DH only players. Unless the team goes yankeesk an buys up all the top FA's with a 160/70m payroll, I'm out on Martinez. Rasmus might not be a bad pickup for a Yr. or 2 an Gregerson may not be good in our park but we do need bullpen help an he at least stays healthy. Aoki might not be a bad bet either. We really need to look for defensive upgrades an bullpen help. I strongly believe a better defense will make our pitchers better. If you sign Sandoval, you're practically committing yourself to trading Gillaspie since Sandoval is a better version of Gillaspie. Headley, Markakis, and Cruz would likely be my top 3 FA targets.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 08:59 AM) a)Do not trade our top prospects. We will be in the position we are in 2 years from now probably without a playoff appearance if we do that. The farm simply isn't there yet. It's improving quickly though. b)No rents that cost any talent to acquire - ridiculous for a 73 win team. c)No good prospects for veterans off of bad years unless at a severe discount. d)Get a good reliever(s). "Proven closer" Closer is not that important. Petricka and Putnam, both virtual rookies, have the stones to close and are likely to improve. Sox need 7th and 8th inning guys to get out of jams. e)Be wary of giving up top draft choices for a FA. The hit rate for #1s is higher than people think, if the club does a good job scouting. This actually is a good year to do it, if a player warrants it. Otherwise, looks okay. a) I think the primary talent acquisition route for the White Sox this off-season will be free agency, however, if, for example, the Braves are offering up Justin Upton for a song, I think you have to jump on that. b) see a c) see a d) Closer is not that important? I just simply disagree with that. e) The highest draft choice the Sox can lose is their second rounder. That said, I think I put together a fairly decent roster under my second strategy without signing a player who got a QO. Thanks for sharing.

This is more of a strategy than a prediction. It was meant to go in the Offseason plan thread, but that was closed, so this is the closest thing to that that I can find... If I were Hahn, I would target the following players in Free Agency, in order of importance, ranked in categories of hitters, relievers, and starters: Hitters 1) OF Melky Cabrera - He's a solid hitter, and would fill a hole in LF with a productive hitter who could hit near the top of the lineup and provide a tough out in front of Abreu as well as a little pop. He will likely go for a higher price tag than what I would have the White Sox give him, and Toronto will likely make a high level effort to keep him, but he would be a good bat to have in the lineup. 2) OF Nick Markakis - I've seen comparisons of Markakis on this board to Alejandro De Aza, and if you completely ignore the value in walking more, striking out about half as much, and having much better defense, they're valid comparisons. If you consider these things to be valuable, though, you can see why Markakis is generally the more valuable player by .5-1.5 WAR. Markakis is a solid bat with some power from the left side that is likely to hit the market and get something in the range of 3-4 years and $30-48 million, making him an affordable option. 3) OF Nelson Cruz - If you want to provide Jose Abreu protection in the lineup, there won't be a better 4 hitter on the market than Cruz. His 40 HRs would certainly give opponents a reason to give Abreu more pitches to hit, and he'll obviously get his own production as well. He likely will have a very high price tag, and Baltimore will be making every effort to keep him, but if they can get him on a 3 year deal, he would appreciably improve the White Sox lineup. 4) 3B Chase Headley - I'm not a big believer in Gillaspie, but I do think if his defense is not factored in, he could be a valuable piece. If you can get Headley, it upgrades the defense and provides a switch hitter with the potential to be a middle of the lineup bat, which at worst would be a 6 or 7 hitter. He'll likely get a contract in the same range as Markakis, which to me makes him affordable to the White Sox 5) 1B Adam LaRoche - The White Sox need left handed power, and LaRoche would provide that, though the downside would be that he would pretty much be the DH. If he can be had on a 2 year deal for a reasonable price, it wouldn't be a bad acquisition, and he could provide Abreu some protection in the lineup. Relievers 1) CL Francisco Rodriguez - The White Sox need a closer, and if they miss out on Robertson, K-Rod would be the best option on the market. His HR rate and declining K rate are concerning, however. 2) RP Luke Gregerson - He has either improved or stayed at the same level of performance every season he's been in MLB, and he has shown closing ability in limited use. Seems like the White Sox also currently have him on their radar. 3) CL Casey Janssen - Prior to 2014, has had some very impressive numbers as a closer, then his performance fell off drastically last year, though he was still successful in save situations. This might be a bounceback candidate that could provide good value. 4) RP Andrew Miller - Miller is a guy who might be able to close, and would definitely fill a need for a left handed arm in the White Sox bullpen. He has impressive peripherals, which likely means he will command a premium on the market, and while some don't see him as worth it, I think he might be depending on what the end cost would be. 5) RP Sean Burnett - Quality left handed arm that could work the 6th or 7th. It seems as though he could be had for relatively cheap as well. 6) RP Zach Duke - This is the type of player that can provide great value. He had a great year last year that pretty much came out of nowhere. This means that if he hits the market, he will probably get a "prove it" type of deal, which could mean getting 2-3 years of a low end cost reliever that could give you a much higher value, potentially even a late inning type of reliever. He also fills a need by being a left handed bullpen arm. 7) RP Tim Stauffer - Could be a very high quality right handed reliever, doesn't allow many HR (though Petco likely plays into that), strikes out a little over 9 per 9 and has about a 3:1 K:BB rate. 8) RP Tom Gorzelanny - He would provide a left handed reliever that could potentially be a late inning reliever. He has nearly 10 K/9, a good ground ball rate, and doesn't allow many HRs. He also probably won't get a premium contract on the market, so is likely a good target. 9) RP Luke Hochevar - Why not? He had TJ surgery, but that means he'll come cheap because he's an unknown at this point. If he can regain most of his previous form, he could be a steal. Starters 1) RHP Chad Billingsley - If he can recover from injury, he will likely provide 2 starter value at 3-4 starter price. T2) RHP Brandon McCarthy - He's a quality starter who can give you quality innings, even if he's not going to give you 200. He's worth a #3 starter contract for 2-3 years. T2) RHP Ervin Santana - He's put up #2-4 starter numbers for around 200 innings in 4 of the last 5 seasons. There's not much buzz around him, either, he could be a good value signing. After identifying the targets, the next step would be to choose a strategy. The way I see it, the options are: 1) Add a lot of payroll and attempt to compete for a playoff spot in 2015. To do this, I see 6-7 new acquisitions as necessary, which means an additional $50-60 million in payroll. 2) Make a few additions to improve in 2015 with the goal being consistently competing for the playoffs for 2016 and beyond. This would still take acquiring 3-5 new players and adding $30-45 million in payroll My ideal roster under strategy #1 (new additions in bold): Lineup CF Eaton LF Cabrera 1B Abreu DH Cruz/LaRoche RF Garcia SS Ramirez 2B Semien 3B Gillaspie C Flowers Bench - Viciedo, Sanchez, Phegley, Danks Rotation 1) Sale 2) Q 3) Billingsley 4) Noesi 5) Danks Bullpen CL Rodriguez Gregerson Miller Putnam Petricka Guerra Bassitt My ideal roster under strategy #2 (new additions in bold): Lineup CF Eaton 2B Semien 1B Abreu LF Garcia RF Markakis SS Ramirez 3B Headley DH Gillaspie/Viciedo (depending on opposing SP) C Flowers Bench - Sanchez, Phegley, Danks Rotation 1) Sale 2) Q 3) Billingsley 4) Noesi 5) Bassitt Bullpen Gregerson Petricka Putnam Guerra Duke Stauffer Danks Personally, I like the second option better, as I think it plays out better for the long run, and gives the team some flexibility in trading pieces like Gillaspie, Viciedo, etc. that might bring a decent return in a package without forcing the team's hand. Also, I've pretty much accepted that the White Sox are going to have to eat Danks's contract, and with Bassitt potentially being capable of being a quality starter, I'd much rather see if that can play out than try to dump $5-10 million of Danks's contract. If you sign Billingsley and he performs, you figure out Bassitt can provide at least 3 starter quality, and Rodon takes Noesi's rotation spot, that is a highly cost controlled, extremely effective rotation. Pair it with an offense that can put up decent numbers, a bullpen that doesn't consist of a gas can and matches, and a defense that can perform at at least an average level, and you have a postseason competitor. The above only considers free agency, mostly because trades are very difficult to predict. That said, looking at trades, my top targets would be: 1) Braves players - Apparently Atlanta wants to get rid of Justin Upton and Evan Gattis, and would be willing to listen to offers on Jason Heyward. All 3 of these players would look very good in a White Sox uniform immediately. 2) Reds players - The Reds are apparently looking to rebuild, and have several players that would be interesting in a trade. Jay Bruce, Mat Latos, Mike Leake, and Aroldis Chapman are all names I would be interested in being involved in a trade. I would say Cueto, but he is likely untouchable, or would require too much to get. Realistically, Chapman likely is similarly situated as well. 3) Justin Morneau - He can likely be had for cheap, looks like he's rounding into his pre-injury form, and would make a great LH power bat behind Abreu. 4) Ben Zobrist - Apparently Tampa wants to trade him, and his ability to play most defensive positions well and hit well from both sides of the plate are very attractive. Also allows some flexibility in trading Alexei and being able to bridge the gap to Anderson. Thoughts?

QUOTE (LDF @ Oct 24, 2014 -> 10:40 AM) as in my other response to your post, who will be the trading partner. Whoever you want. For example, a lot of people have mentioned Heyward and Upton, is there a (or several different) combination(s) of players there that could net that return in realistic estimation? Or the Reds, a lot of people have talked about Jay Bruce, and they also have a lot of interesting starters and relievers. Is there a package there that could get, say, Bruce and Latos/Leake? Or, even more (probably impossibly) ambitious, those two and Chapman?

So I asked about this list of players earlier as far as what they could get for a return if packaged: Conor Gillaspie Dayan Viciedo Carlos Sanchez Micah Johnson Chris Bassitt Tyler Danish Chris Beck Francellis Montas And this discussion of these Braves players is an example of why. Could any group of players off that list net the return people are looking for? Or perhaps an interesting group of players from the Reds?

Just out of curiosity, for this group of players packaged any way you would like to package, what do you think possible return(s) would be: Conor Gillaspie Dayan Viciedo Carlos Sanchez Micah Johnson Chris Bassitt Tyler Danish Chris Beck Francellis Montas

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 29, 2014 -> 12:53 PM) Chase Headley playing the majority of time in LF is not a solid idea. He is a GG like 3B. QUOTE (Vance Law @ Sep 29, 2014 -> 02:13 PM) The one thing he is best at on the baseball field is 3B defense. If we got Headley, he should be starting at 3rd. Conor then should be traded or part of a DH platoon and backup 3B/1B. You can hope for Headley to return to form at the plate, but if you're one of the people who was unimpressed with Gillaspie's offense, you're sure not going to like Headley putting up another .700 OPS at 3B. Okay, then platoon Conor in LF, stick Headley at 3B, and Viciedo and Gillaspie split LF and DH. Or if they get Markakis as well, Avi moves to LF, Gillaspie and Viciedo split DH and back up corner OF and corner IF.

QUOTE (VAfan @ Sep 28, 2014 -> 02:20 PM) The debate over V Mart is all about 1) his guessed cost, and 2) whether or how fast he will decline as a hitter. What seems to be missing is any discussion of the overall fit and what the alternatives might be. - The Sox MUST have lefty power. At the moment they have NONE. - The Sox really need someone to slot behind Abreu, to keep him from being pitched around. - The Sox would be better with fewer high strikeout guys in their lineup. V Mart fills all of these needs. And what are the alternatives on the FA market? For all those railing against V Mart, what other lefty free agent can we sign who is (1) younger, (2) just as consistent throughout his career, and (3) cheaper than V Mart? That player likely does not exist, or we would be debating him instead of V Mart. ************* As much as I want the Sox to take Victor Martinez away from the Tigers, the more important area of the team the Sox need to fix is the bullpen. Martinez's bat isn't going to make a 15-game swing in the standings. Nor would adding an impact right hander. But fixing the bullpen could. And if we DON'T fix the bullpen, it won't matter what else we do, because our bullpen will continue blowing games at an alarming rate. Nick Markakis or Chase Headley seem like better solutions to me. Both will be cheaper, both are younger, and both have the ability to hit for power. Headley is actually perfect for this team because he could take the starts at 3B vs. LHP and start in LF vs. RHP. In fact, I'd rather the Sox use $25 million per year to sign those two than use $20 million per year to sign Martinez. It will pay a lot bigger dividends both short term and long term.

raBBit, since I cannot quote your post, if you read the WHOLE thread, you'll notice that my FIRST example of an aging decline was Paul Konerko, and my SECOND example of an aging decline was Magglio Ordonez. To the naysayers, Konerko's decline was ONLY because of injury, and now according to you, Ordonez's decline was ONLY because he was a steroid user. So I am asking, how many good hitters do I need to find who fell off the face of the Earth performance wise before age 37 for you and all the other naysayers to believe that it's a trend? I think the fact that the first two I examined had an almost identical decline pattern speaks volumes on the issue, but I'm curious how many it would take to show that signing Martinez is a bad idea?

QUOTE (raBBit @ Sep 27, 2014 -> 07:08 PM) Your prime example for your point was an obvious steroid user. What's your point? Paul Konerko was an obvious steroid user? How many examples do you need before you will acknowledge it's a trend?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 27, 2014 -> 04:23 PM) Are you. Check out some of the names I mentioned earlier in the thread. To say every ages the same way is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. If Victor has some sort of condition that would lead one to believe he cannot remain healthy for 3 seasons, then I would agree with you. But to say, Konerko fell apart after injury at 36, Maggs got hurt and dropped off a cliff at 36, therefore, everyone should drop off a cliff at 36 makes no sense. Look at Edgar Martinez's numbers. Look at Harold Baines' numbers. Look at Frank Thomas, Jim Thome....these guys were mostly DH's which is where Victor will mostly be. Show me the trend. You mentioned 4 guys who are at least borderline for the Hall of Fame. Thank you for making my point that unless Victor Martinez becomes a Hall of Fame caliber player, the team who signs him for 3/$60 is going to regret it. Also, please quit overexaggerating. No one is saying don't sign anyone over 30. Signing people over the age of 35 to huge contracts is a bad idea in general, which is and has been my point.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 27, 2014 -> 02:54 PM) .306/.373/.848 for his career. An average hitter this year is .251/.314/.701. I think he is a bit better than above average. He is a great hitter. His career split line and Magglio's career split line are almost identical. Magglio Ordonez Age 36 Season Slash Line: .303/.378/.852 Magglio Ordonez Age 37 Season Slash Line: .255/.303/.634 Magglio Ordonez Age 38 Season Slash Line: Not Available I'm sensing a trend here.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Sep 27, 2014 -> 11:44 AM) When talking about the free agent market?? What young FA are we gonna acquire? Because Russell Martin is a few years younger he won't break his Wrist and decline? It can't happen to Billy Butler because he's 29? If they go cheap on hitting and go big on pitching, none of those guys are at risk to tommy john or something like that? There's a risk in every player you sign. There MAY be a bigger risk in VMart, but there's also MAY be a much bigger reward. I don't care about the Tigers. I want the Sox to put out a team that can beat the Tigers, not worry about them having bad contracts. ...... Sox have Abreu for 2 more discounted years then he probably gets real expensive. Couple that with the Sale and Q contracts and the Sox are in a good position to take a "risk" on a guy like VMart. Even at 20M for the first 2 years the payroll is still only gonna be in the 80M range, and with an addition like Martinez I fully expect the Sox to go "all in" and the payroll to be back over 100M. Martinez wouldn't cripple the Sox at all. I said the same thing about Cano last year with a 25M a year contract. An injury decline is a risk that can't be mitigated, but an age decline risk can be mitigated...by not signing someone who will be 36 to start next season. Obviously there's a risk to every player that can be signed, but that risk increases with age and with dollars spent on the player. This is why I think it would be stupid to sign ANY 36 year old to a 3 year/$60 million deal. The risk factor is far too high.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Sep 27, 2014 -> 11:06 AM) That could be said about anyone though really. No, it can't. Not everyone has the age factor working against them. You want to affect the Tigers' ability to compete using Victor Martinez? Let them resign him and pile up more bad contracts.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 27, 2014 -> 03:53 AM) Or have one small wrist injury and then it snowballs because of his age. I would have figured Paulie to age better than VMart, but as has been said everything people are saying about Martinez could have been said about Konerko. In the first half of 2012, Paulie looked like he had a HoF push left in him. 500 homers at the least. Then injury. And give me a break with bringing up Fisk. He's one of the all-time great catchers and a baseball legend. He is not the standard. Could not have put it better myself. If Martinez were 32, I'd be on board with signing him for 3-4 years. However, because he's 36, unless he ends up being a hall of famer, whoever signs him to his next contract is going to regret it. I don't really want the White Sox to gamble with $20 million of payroll for the next 3+ years that Victor Martinez will end up in the top 1% of the top 1% of players in baseball history. It's a safer bet than the alternative, especially since that $20 million can be spread out to 3 or 4 good players.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 26, 2014 -> 07:10 PM) You have to judge guys on an individual basis. PK's performance has nothing to do with how VMart will perform at similar ages. PK's a walking cripple. To do what Martinez did this year you have to be pretty healthy. I'm actually shocked at how many people don't want one of the best hitters on the planet for 3 years. Are we so steeped in mediocrity that not only do we accept it but we yearn for it ? Do Dustin Ackley's beckham-like numbers or Rasmus' viciedo-like numbers really appeal to so many ? Have we gotten rid of the dead weight only to acquire more of the same ? Konerko and Dunn, two older sluggers who declined over the past 3 or 4 years and were highly overpaid as a result, have much more to do with the mediocrity than Beckham or Viciedo. Ironic, then, that you would talk about shedding the dead weight to acquire more while advocating for signing Victor Martinez.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 26, 2014 -> 03:16 AM) .303/.376/.847 lifetime. If hehas his career average year, he is pretty damn good. Not many players hit their career averages very many times after 35. QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 26, 2014 -> 03:29 AM) I knew he'd come back with the career yr. stuff but you beat me to the punch. It's been like 5 yrs since the guy hit under .300 and how good do you have to be to have a career yr. at 35 ? Answer: Really good and really smart too. 41 K's this year. 41 ! Adam Dunn never sniffed .300 and usually had 41 K's some time in May. Just to be accurate on Konerko he came in 13th in MVP voting during his age 35 season and was an All Star in his age 36 season . Just to be accurate, Konerko's age 36 season represented a significant dropoff from his age 35 season, and his age 37 and 38 seasons fell off a damn cliff. Aging is extremely unkind to athletes, and I wouldn't want to be stuck paying Victor Martinez for the type of production Konerko has had for the past two seasons.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 25, 2014 -> 11:17 PM) Do you like what you've seen of Abreu. I'm sure you do. Great season right ? Well VMart has been just as good as Abreu in his age 35 season. He has the highest batting average in his career, the highest OBP ,SLG , TB , OPS, and OPS+. He's doubled his career best in intentional walks and has K'ed just 41 times in 627 PA's. That's almost 90 less K's than Abreu. In many respects he's been better than Abreu. Just how fast do you expect him to fall off a cliff ? According to what you're saying he's got 1 good year left in him after a monster of a season. It helps a lot hitting behind Cabrera and hitting behind or in front of Abreu would be just as good. Sox fans need something to get excited about . As I've already said if you get him and McCarthy and Dave Robertson we will be contending because we'll have a better lineup bullpen and rotation especially if they are all signed for 3 years we can contend for those 3 years while also working Rodon, Bassitt, Montas, Danish and any other pitching prospect that develops into the rotation and pen which will cost the bare minimum that players make in their 1st 3/4 years in the league. Contend for 3 yrs then contend after that with a (hopefully) very strong rotation after that anchored by cheap young talent. You can't wait till the year after to get a big bat in free agency because we're likely to be outspent by all the high rollers which will probably end up the case with VMart also. BTW I've been the one tossing around Michael Saunders name but the Sox would have to trade for him and we are woefully short on pieces ( talent) to trade if we don't want to touch our minor league guys. Your argument in favor of Martinez is actually the problem with him. You're right, he had a career year at 35. What do you think the probability he'll repeat at 36 is? How about at 37? 38? Let's put it this way, the types of players that continue to produce at elite levels through their age 38 seasons usually end up in Cooperstown. I don't see Martinez as that caliber of player, and if you hated Adam Dunn at 4/$56, it's highly probable that you'll despise Victor Martinez at 3/$60. Look at Paul Konerko's last 4 seasons. Konerko's age 35 season was near MVP caliber, and his decline began at age 36. The last 3 seasons of Konerko are a decent window into what Victor Martinez is likely to give you for 3/$60. If you still think that's a good idea, then I hope that either the White Sox disagree or Victor Martinez defies probability and logic.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 24, 2014 -> 08:50 PM) You said a lot but you said nothing. Don't spend money on old bats in free agency. You know that pretty much anyone who reaches free agency is on the old side . The Sox have needs but all you said is acquire. Didn't say how to acquire but our quality tradeable assets are scarce but we have plenty of payroll room. That would suggest the Sox are more likely to explore the free agent route But don't sign the big names but you want 2 starting OF's and hopefully one is a middle of the order bat ? Do you know what starting outfielders and middle of the order bats cost ? How exactly do we get all that talent without trading anyone or signing anyone to a big free agent contract ? Now Colby Rasmus is 28 and a free agent had a lot of trouble beating the shift and swung at a lot of pitches out of the zone. I think wherever he signs it will be to play on a grass field. He thinks the turf in Toronto has a lot to do with nagging injuries with his hamstrings and hips. He still probably gets $10M a yr. for anywhere from 3-6 years from somebody . Is he someone you like being one of the younger free agents ? He had good years in the past but when he's bad he hits like Viciedo but is a much better fielder. Is a guy who just as likely to "hit" as he is to "miss" a way to build a championship caliber team ? Where is the power coming from next year without Dunn and maybe without Viciedo ? Without naming names , dollars and years it's rather easy to say don't do this or that but how do you execute it ? When is the year we are supposed to be ready? Abreu needs some quality bats around him in the lineup . Should he try to do it all by himself ? Do you want him to be turning 30 and the Sox are still filling holes by trying to nickel and dime their way into a playoff team ? The rumors have been the the Sox do intend to try to get VMart. Now if that's the truth , great , I'm 100% for it . The team has it's big names locked up and the rest are a long way from peak earning years. They have money to spend . Spend it on the best and lets get the talent level on this team higher and try to compete before Sales arm or Q's arm falls off. VMart isn't Dunn maybe the whole Dunn deal has clouded some peoples judgment . He hits for average and power and would be a great asset for our younger player's development and he's not likely to sign a lengthy deal at his age . If he wants 5 years yeah, forget it, but if he'll take 3 we have a few years to work our current starting pitching prospects into the rotation and compete at the same time. So I highly doubt signing a few free agents to 3 year deals with the amount of payroll space the Sox have is going to hamstring the team especially when the long term goal of competing every year isn't going to cost much if our young pitchers can step in. If you think that spending in free agency will make this team about 20 wins better and capable of sustaining that level of success for the next 5+ seasons at least, then disregard my post, as the premise of the entire thing is that it's going to take longer than this off-season to build a sustainable contender, likely another full year. That said, Victor Martinez is not the answer unless the question is "Who can the White Sox sign to a contract they'll regret by midseason 2016?" He's 36 years old and it appears that some team is going to give him $20 million per year for at least 3 years. That will hamstring the process of putting together a competitive team for 2016 and beyond. If the team wants to spend $20 million this off-season, they should acquire three or four players who could give much bigger returns on investment. I didn't get into specifics because I haven't really studied the free agent class, but you mentioned one guy that might fit the bill that I'm taking about in Rasmus, Markakis is another guy that might work if the O's don't pick up his option, and I've heard the name Michael Saunders tossed around, which doesn't seem like a bad idea either. The savings you get between two decent bats vs. Martinez could be spent on a pen arm or two, then toss another $15-20 million in for another pen arm and a decent SP and you've set the stage well for 2016. If the team improves 5-10 wins with that kind of off-season, then you go get the big bat in the 2015 off-season, when the entire contract will occur in competitive years.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 24, 2014 -> 02:19 PM) That's a pretty good post as I am honored you have expressed my position pretty accurately and your toilet paper line was quite well written and funny, especially for an internet forum. True I don't have much confidence in the Sox bringing in their minor leaguers to fill future roles. I hope you are right about Semien at short. I would prefer your option 3 at this time. Let Lexi play some more for the Sox until Anderson is ready. I'm assuming Anderson was a solid No. 1 pick, but I am getting worried that his defense may suck. The best thing I've heard about his defense on this board is it figures to get better since he's young. I actually am in favor of Semien playing second next year. I don't want to see him butcher third defensively any longer. So I want Gillaspie to platoon with somebody at third and pray his defense gets more consistent; Lexi at short; Semien at second and Abreu at first. That's a playoff caliber infield. Yank Lexi out of there and it's a sub .500 team infield (or worse as I expressed earlier) unless Abreu goes bonkers with 60 homers. I appreciate the compliment, but I again have to disagree with your assessment, mainly because I feel that we have completely different assessments of the level of talent on the team, the team needs, and the level of talent it will take for this team to compete. The main reason I would be in favor of trading Ramirez is that I see 2015 as the tail end of the "not-a-rebuild" phase. As such, it's a good time to find out if Semien, Sanchez, and maybe Micah Johnson can be effective major league players. It's highly unlikely that all three won't be able to hack it, so if two don't work out, fill that hole in the 2015 off-season. Whether or not Alexei is traded this off-season, the White Sox need to find a RH utility player who can take starts at 2B, 3B, and possibly LF do they can play matchups well. If Alexei is traded, you're probably looking for a starting caliber bat there rather than a quality bench guy. Again, you're not going to be able to gain 15-20 wins in one off-season without spending an obscene amount of money, depleting the scant resources of the farm system, or both. Thus, if you get an offer that blows you away for Ramirez, it would be foolish not to pull the trigger.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 24, 2014 -> 08:28 AM) I agree with all of this, but just want to note on the bolded - that's a lot of crap the Sox are shopping. It's the same problem they had at the deadline this year and it's the major problem with the current roster construction, but it's a very good problem to have. Right now, the Sox have a few very talented, high upside players on the roster - specifically Sale, Quintana, Abreu, Eaton, and possibly Garcia (though I'm still timid, he's acquainted himself fairly well and he should be a good bat moving forward, if nothing else). The problem is filling in around them - the back of the rotation needs help, the bullpen is very mediocre, and there are still holes and upgradeable positions throughout the lineup. Those are much, much easier to fill than giant, glaring holes where you need big time production. Basically, if you shop those other guys, don't expect a lot because they are not very good. I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, and with marginal value in mind, I think Gillaspie is pretty much untradable, since I doubt other teams will value him at his performance level for the year, especially since he fell off a cliff in August. That said, he's 28 and is performing like an above average 3B. That leaves Ramirez as the only guy you're going to get much value for, and that should only happen if an offer is to good to resist. Viciedo might net a reclamation project, and Danks would net another bad contract at best. I realize that you're not likely to pick up anything of value for anyone else, but on the off chance that you can, take it.

As for the thread premise, here goes: DO acquire at least two hitters, preferably OF, one of which should be LH and ideally both starter caliber. If I were doing the shopping, I would be looking at potential guys and reclamation projects here. A guy who the front office thinks could be a middle of the order bat is a must, but other than that I would look for good defense and low K rates. One of these holes may be able to be filled internally with Semien depending on how okay you are with he and Sanchez both playing major roles in 2015. DO acquire a solid, #2-3 type RHSP, and a couple of quality bullpen pieces. Doing this will place the Sox in the best position they can be in to contend next year, while also giving some flexibility at the trade deadline if things break poorly, as they did this year. Doing this will also give the Sox a starting 5 that can at least compete for the first half without having to force their hand on Rodon, assuming that you believe that two of Noesi, Danks, Carroll, and Bassitt can give you quality 4 and 5 guys. The other plus from that group is the two that don't make the rotation may be able to be used to improve the bullpen, which will need several upgrades from any and all sources possible for this team to compete next year. DO shop everyone on the ML team except for Sale, Q, Abreu, Eaton, A. Garcia, and anyone under the age of 25. To me, if the price is right on anyone else, you take the deal. The only players that would require a major return in my book would be Ramirez and Gillaspie, because I feel that the production of either would be particularly difficult to replace, and would create a ripple effect of platoon problems, unless you feel Semien can replace Gillaspie's production. Also, if you can sucker someone into taking Danks's contact, great, but unlikely. Viciedo would be a great guy to move as well, especially if you can get anything of value for him. DO NOT hand John Danks a 2015 rotation slot. To me, if the team goes out and signs a #2-3 caliber starter, then rotation slots 4 and 5 should be completely up for grabs. I have a feeling Noesi will pull down one of those slots because he has pitched fairly well for the White Sox this year, but I would like to see Bassitt, maybe Carroll, and hell even Erik Johnson get a shot at a starting slot. I hate the idea of making decisions on sunk costs, and to me, the only reason Danks would even be considered for the 2015 rotation is the sunk cost of his contract. If that's the case, then make him the long man and give a guy like Bassitt a shot to develop. That would be ideal to me, with the eventuality being that Rodon takes one of the 4 or 5 slots when he is ready. DO NOT spend big money in free agency on an old, "proven" bat. Signing a guy like Victor Martinez would set this team back in its goals as he is 36 and will get WAY too much on the open market. Paying a 36 year old $20 million per year for 3 years is obscenely stupid unless you feel that that player can put your team on a championship contending level. Without significant other spending, Victor Martinez would not do that for the White Sox. Nor would Russell Martin, nor any of the other 32-36 year olds available. DO NOT go into "Win Now" mode. This is a ~75 win team. To be a playoff team, it will take a ~15-20 win improvement. It would be nigh impossible to gain that ground this off-season, and it would be bad to do so for the overarching long term goal of building a consistent championship contender. Gaining another 5-10 games this off-season should be the goal, with the full force of "Win Now" mode coming into effect after the 2015 season. Obviously, that doesn't mean start trading away the farm at that point, but I feel as though 2016 is going to be the realistic beginning of the White Sox competitive window with this core.