chitownsportsfan

Robertson and Kahnle wow.

Surprisingly well put together article via the trib, with some good quotes from Hahn, Renteria, Avi and Jose: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...1001-story.html Much more at the link.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 04:14 PM) I too don't understand where the "Collins had a bad year" agenda-pushers came from. I'll take an .816 OPS with his defensive improvements any day. I think a lot of people think his walk rate will dry up in the high minors and MLB. I'm not really so sure. Look at a guy like Narvaez, he's hardly a slugger, and yet he has great strike zone judgement and in general isn't afraid to go deep into counts. It's not like pitchers are afraid to throw him strikes he just has a good eye. We'll see what happens with Collins but if he's a decent defensive catcher just hitting 230/300/400 puts him around 2 WAR.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 04:32 PM) Yeah, I am deleting my posts. No interest in rehashing all of that again. I don't think anybody is coming at you maliciously, just curious as to your thinking now based on what you said at the time, which was almost 100% disappointment with the direction the club was going.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 03:10 PM) And this is why I quit saying it. Its all backup quarterback syndrome. I mean in an alt universe maybe if the Sox keep Eaton, Sale, etc they win 87 games this year and are playing the Yankees in a one game play in tonight...but do you really think that is sustainable? The key thing Hahn keeps emphasizing is a "sustained period of contending". Not just hoping to have a perfect offseason to reach 87 wins and hoping for a fluke playoff run. Hahn is trying to do a Astros and Cubs style rebuild where you have a 4-6 year window, not just a year to year hope and a prayer. I know you know all this and you're still not excited but I just couldn't get excited about the Sox' "doubling down" year after year and never ever over achieving just always under achieving and disappointing us.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 02:58 PM) I'd rate year one of the rebuild an 8. From a talent acquisition standpoint, I'd give us a 9 or 10. In the past 12 months, we've acquired five-end pitching prospects in Kopech, Giolito, Lopez, Dunning, & Cease and four high-end positional prospects in Moncada, Jimenez, Rutherford, & Robert. In addition, they acquired another half-dozen interesting prospects in Basabe, Puckett, Gillaspie, Cordell, Clarkin, & Polo. Overall, I think Hahn did an awesome job moving his assets for value, demonstrating incredible patience that helped ensure his price was met. I'll admit I was a little disappointed with the Yankees trade (like everyone else), but overall it's hard not to be happy with the amount talent brought in. And this does not include the potential impact of the 2017 draft, which is way too early to evaluate but will hopefully be a strong one. Having said that, from a development standpoint I can only give this year a 7. Don't get me wrong, there were definitely many pluses. At the major league level, several key young guys came up in Moncada, Giolito, & Lopez and showed signs of what they will hopefully become. Guys like Sanchez & Leury look like legit major leaguers, even if they ultimately end up in reserve roles. Delmonico was simply awesome in his 40 game audition and looks like he might be a legit piece going forward. And this doesn't even include Abreu & Avi who both had spectacular years and could be part of our next competitive or be used to add more talent to the system. However, there were also some negatives this year and those start with Anderson & Rodon, two of our most important building blocks. While Tim definitely turned things around the last couple months, his overall 2017 season is very ugly. Not the type of result you want to see from what should be a key young cog and a kid that just signed a long-term deal. Carlos' season is disappointment primarily due to injuries. At times he flashed that legit ace potential, but he was once again inconsistent. As for the farm, 2017 was definitely a mixed bag. Kopech, Hansen, & Dunning made huge strides on the pitching side, while Adams & Guerrero had nice rebound seasons. Eloy was insane after he came over, Adolfo made some serious strides despite his flaws, & Zavala put himself on the map as legit catching prospect. Unfortunately there was still quite a bit of bad. Fulmer was a disaster, Burdi got injured, and several important positional prospects regressed in Fisher, Call, & Basabe. Collins had a mixed season, showing an incredible mix of power & patience for a catcher, but real bat to ball concerns. And the LatAm program continues to struggle IMO, providing minimal impact to our full season ball teams. I apologize for the lengthy post, but despite how happy we should all be with where the rebuild is at, I think it's important to highlight the player development issues the organization is still battling. Great post, cheers.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 03:06 PM) To be fair, one of the reasons Stanton missed the end of a year was because he was hit in the face by a 95 MPH fastball. That's not injury prone, that's bad luck. He has been prone to lower body injuries in the past, primarily quads, hamstrings, and groins, which are not good. I would trust the Sox training staff to take care of him. For the right price, I'd absolutely consider it. I believe he has an opt out in 3 or 4 years, and I imagine he'd use that to get one more long-term deal, but maybe not. the opt out is really the poison pill. It f***s the team either way. If he's that awesome than great, you'll probably lose him in FA. If he sucks, he's going to opt in and you're stuck.

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 12:30 PM) That paragraph in there is nuts "even had they included Brinson or Ortiz". So it was a package without Brinson Ortiz or Hader? The Quintana trade was by far the best of the rebuild considering the other offers that were rumored. The Cubs got their man and if they win it all again FFF but it really seems like nobody else was in the same ballpark, offering up anything close to Jimenez. Honestly I'd have been happy with Eloy for Q straight up based on how Eloy performed in the 2n d half. Acuna will probably be #1 overall but Eloy will be a no doubt top #5 preseason and is probably the best pure hitting prospect in baseball. Spring training will be a lot of fun this year.

I wouldn't do it. No reason to take on that much money right now. Maybe if it was 2020 offseason and the Sox were coming off a 84-88 win season.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 12:21 PM) It's also the end of the deal. Fair value for Sale, IMO, would've been Moncada, Kopech, one of Basabe/Diaz, and one prospect who's better than them but worse than Moncada/Kopech. The 3rd piece was just too light- someone like Travis, Chavis, or Groome would've helped. I dunno when you are getting the #1 overall prospect and arguably the highest upside pitching prospect in the game that is already fairly advanced (ready for AA) it's hard to ask much out of the 3rd and 4th pieces imo, even for Sale.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 12:55 PM) It could have, though the offers were never close to Sale/Eaton at that time, hence the Sox sitting on him until July. What other team(s) were rumored to be in on Q? Weren't the Brewers heavily involved? The hangup was Josh Hader? https://www.brewcrewball.com/2017/9/25/1636...ukee-per-report Huh, well I'm glad the Sox held out because Eloy is >>>>>>> than any return the Brew Crew could have given the Sox -- at least once Eloy went into "holy s***" mode post trade.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Oct 3, 2017 -> 09:06 AM) Moncada and Kopech are both elite prospects. Who else was going to offer a better package than that? The rebuild has been as good as we could hope so far, minus dealing Tatis Jr. for Shields in what is looking like a big mistake. Lets hope we can recoup some of that lost value in the 2018 draft. I expect us to be active in the rule V draft coming up as well. One of the more interesting parts of this off-season will probably be how they handle the 40 man and if they do anything in the rule 5. I'm guessing Tyler will be cut loose and maybe a reliever or two.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Oct 2, 2017 -> 10:11 PM) 0 till they win the world series the greg option.

If you gave a different rating earlier in the year, elaborate. Note that on June 26th when the original poll was started we finished with 40% of us rating it a 10 or 9. Here is the link to the original thread. Since then the Sox made the following transactions. I went with a 9. Rodon I rate outside their control and the only real miss step IMO was going after Rutherford. Enough position players made enough progress in the low minors to where I won't knock them. It would have been better if Basabe and Collins improved but some prospects bust Sox just need to come out on average. Enough vets came through, enough non prospects came through, and the club won enough at the end with the early wave that I am quite excited, thus 9. Next year will be more telling, and we'll have twice as big of a sample so we'll see!

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Oct 2, 2017 -> 05:33 PM) Seriously. The positives far outweigh the negatives. Complaining about Holland, Pelfrey etc is just looking for something to whine about. I guess some are just damn determined to stay in a negative mindset. I got no for that shiite. If anything watching those guys suck so bad didn't even bother me because they are just filler and were helping the tank. Now watching the corpse of Paul Konerko (bless you Paulie but at the end you stunk, not your fault) try and lead the Sox to one last playoff run and doing thing like trading anybody with a pulse for James Shields in a desperate attempt to win 86 games -- now that s*** bothers me.

QUOTE (Tony @ Oct 2, 2017 -> 04:45 PM) What do I take away from the 2017 season? For the first time in a LONG time, I was checking in daily to see how individuals were preforming in August and September. It was said by a few of us multiple times but this was the most enjoyable season as a Sox fan in a long time. I also went to more games this season than I have in probably 5 years. The Rodon news is probably the most depressing to come out of 2017. As Balta noted, he has shown flashes of absolute dominance, but can't stay on the mound long enough for sustained success. Doesn't look like 2018 will be that year either, but fingers crossed. Yes. I feel like I watched about 40 games in August and September this year, like I either had them on in the background at work or I watched them on replay in MLB.tv, or I at least watched the condensed game. Have not watched probably more than that the last three seasons combined so late in the year. Was long over the club and daily check ins at that point. Box score watching at best.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 2, 2017 -> 04:30 PM) 300 innings isn't really even a lot of minor league experience if you think about it. The kid is still learning on the job. Some of if it unrealistic expectations, which the Sox themselves helped create. When he was drafted it was "holy f*** we can't believe a guy who was a consensus #1 pre season fell to us on mostly concerns we see as prospect fatigue". They gave him the largest bonus of anybody that draft and didn't shut down any of the "maybe he'll pitch out of the pen later this year like Sale" talk. Hey, I bought it. I saw a guy that had dominating stuff but lost a couple ticks of velocity and some command but that was still a once every five years dominant college starter with a lower half that looked more like a NFL linebacker than a college pitcher. Surely he'd regain the velocity (if not the command right away) and prove why he should have went #1 overall. But, things haven't quite worked out that way. This year was supposed to be his "leap" year where he went from "OK this guy is good for a 23 year old with hardly any experience" to "hey this guy is evolving into a TOR starter period. I'm not angry or really even that disappointed in his season but I am bummed that he doesn't appear to be the surefire #1 or #2 guy with durability I thought he was going to be. Part of that is on me, but it's also what the Sox were selling. Caveat Emptor I guess. edit: oddly, this may actually benefit the sox long term if they can convinced Rodon in the next 18 months to sign a guaranteed deal and buy out those remaining arb years. Yea he's a Boras client but it might be a good bet for both sides to make. Sox will bet they can keep him reasonably healthy (especially come playoff time in say 2021) and Rodon will bet on TINSSAPP and setting up his family for life regardless.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 2, 2017 -> 03:56 PM) Carlos Rodon has a career total of 55 2/3 IP in the minor leagues, including the 13+ he pitched down there this year. The fact that he has struggle with consistency is only a surprise in that it hasn't been MORE often, not how often it has happened. That was a fair point coming into this year but not after he only managed 69.1 innings with a FIP of 4.69. For whatever reason he struggled when he came back this year. I'm guessing his arm never felt right. I'm willing to give him a pass for the performance but not because of lack of development time in the minors. He had over 300 innings of MLB experience coming into this year. He should not be walking over 4 guys per 9 innings at this point.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 2, 2017 -> 04:07 PM) He has had a similar stretch each of the 3 seasons he's been in the big leagues though. 2015 over his last 8 starts, 1.91 ERA. 2016 7 start stretch at the beginning of August - 1.85 ERA. To me he's still basically the same pitcher he came up as. When his "Stuff" is working he's absolutely dominant, but no pitcher ever maintains their fastball and slider through the entire season. Rodon gets into month-ish grooves when he has good control of both of them and maybe even the change tags along those games, but those stretches come when he's overpowering with stuff. No one can possibly say that pre-injury Rodon didn't have dominant stuff, he has as good of a slider as anyone in the game and a mid 90s fastball. He just doesn't have any way to win games on days when he doesn't have his dominating stuff. Not to derail but I agree 100% with this. I've just been disappointed in general with Rodon. Hopefully part of that was the discomfort he had in the shoulder.

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Oct 1, 2017 -> 07:41 PM) It seemed like he had a hard time handling the clubhouse. You had a spoiled petulant ace throwing temper tantrums, cussing out front office personnel and cutting uniforms, you had a struggling DH's kid being treated like he was actually on the team, and you had a right fielder creating cliques in the clubhouse. That seems like a clubhouse out of control. The good thing is I don't see that happening in Rick Renteria's clubhouse. He doesn't seem like the type to take that kind of s***. + 1 million. RV is a great guy and he was a helluva player for the Sox. That said, he's an awful leader of men. He's not much better tactically. He often seemed to managing on "hope", especially with the bullpen. And how many times was he outguessed late when trying to get a platoon advantage only to see the opposing manager insert a pinch hitter? It happened at least twice during his tenure and it just speaks to an unprepared mind. I don't really think he liked managing and almost did it as a favor to JR. Ricky has some issues but there has, as you noted, been a big time improvement on the professionalism of the ballclub.

Two quick thoughts: -- Foundation has been laid for "sustained success". In Moncada, Leury, Yolmer, Delmonico, Eloy, Kopech, Anderson, Giolito, Lopez and Hansen you have the next core of guys you'd expect produce around 30 WAR in any given season. There are another half a dozen guys position player guys and maybe a couple more pitcher wise you'd expect to add another 10-20 WAR over the next five year window. -- Next year in many ways will be more difficult. This year was "house money" and the Sox did well. Next year you're going to have a really young lineup at times and some of the young studs, including Eloy and Kopech, are probably going to have some rough patches. We are going to expect more wins than this year, but that might not be the case, especially if they trade Avi and/or Jose.

Wow, I'm not sure what's crazier, that he finished with 3.5 (after his 1st half) or if it really will come down to the rounding on your bet!

QUOTE (Dunt @ Oct 2, 2017 -> 10:55 AM) Very encouraged by what I saw this season. Positives: -Farm system took steps forward, a lot of great performances across the board -Yoan turned in a solid rookie season. 104 wRC+, .327 wOBA, 6 DRS, .181 ISO. I think he only goes up from here. -Avi has played himself into either being a part of the future or a potential nice trade chip to further load up the system -Jose Abreu had his best season since his rookie year -Omar Narvaez, while awful at pitch framing, proved he can be a part of this moving forward in atleast a backup role. He actually reminds me of Alex Avila with less power. -Giolito impressed me quite a bit this season. To start the season the way he did and finish the way he did says a lot to me about his maturity and his mental toughness. Even if he doesn't reach his lofty ceiling, I think his floor is a really serviceable #3 for a championship team. -Lopez showed glimpses of some really gross stuff. The lack of strikeouts was a little bit concerning, but I think he was pretty gased by the end of the season. The fact that he was throwing 97-98 in his last start though makes me confident in his ability to start moving forward though. -Nicky Delmonico is a find. He is the type of player/find/hidden gem that accelerates the timeline of a rebuild. Im not sure he can be this good moving forward, but it's nice to have a little insurance at DH/LF. He is a solid LH bat and a welcome surprise this season. -Yolmer finished w/ a 2.1 fWAR season. His offensive profile is still nothing to write home about, but Im confident you can plug him in at 3B next season and he can be a place holder until Burger is ready or they go out and get someone like Machado, Donaldson, Arenado, etc. Negatives: -Tim had a tough season. It's great he came on in the second half, but his defense took a massive step back. I hope he's able to flush this season and come out the other side a better player. I want him to succeed here. -Fernando Tatis looks like an absolute beast. -Rodon can't seem to stay healthy. -Renteria likes bunting far too much. Great summary!

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Sep 29, 2017 -> 01:15 PM) Century, not decade lol, what a time to be alive.

One of the most reviled players in the last decade puts together a good, not great year, and he turns into a franchise cornerstone. Man, fans are fickle as f***. He's even being "credited" for being hurt! Just imagine what his numbers would be like if he wasn't hurt! Come on folks. Avi has been injury prone, among other flaws. You don't credit a guy with a hypothetical. Regress his BABIP down to a high but reasonable 340 next year (no player can sustain a 390 BABIP, not even Mike Trout) and his slash line goes to around 280/330/460. Decent production but nothing special from a mediocre corner OF. Avi has improved; I don't want to deny him that. What I do want to deny is that he's on a superstar track. Or even a star track. He had one good year. He's had 4 bad years. His timeline for getting expensive does not align with the rebuild timeline. Look at the whole picture and make a decision based on all the info, not just "he was an all star!".