Balta1701

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 05:51 PM) To be fair, Gillaspie's deal wasn't exactly groundbreaking. The Garcia and Eaton deals were much bigger. I figured it fit as well. I think we have to go back to Carlos Quentin to find the White Sox making a solid trade for a position player. Maybe Juan Pierre other than that?

QUOTE (shipps @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 05:42 PM) Avengers 2. It aint happening tho Well yeah, that movie already came out.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 05:34 PM) And therein lies the real Sox problem, along with lack of development. So, frankly, I'd rather have a player another team has scouted and developed. Like he said a moment ago...our record with that recently is "Matt Davidson, Avi Garcia, Conor Gillaspie, and Adam Eaton". That doesn't inspire confidence right now either.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 05:29 PM) If it's in the home, and you tell your kids it's because you love slavery or hate black people you'd have a point, but I don't think the majority use that flag as that anymore. I don't even view it as racist so much as a symbol of the south, so it's not doing a very good job of teaching racism. And that's part of the problem. The Symbol of the South is a racist symbol. Flying it as a symbol of the south is being passively racist at best, if not actively. It needs to not be.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 05:27 PM) No. I have full faith in them drafting a quality pitcher in the comp round (plenty of talent still available at that point). If we were drafting a position pitcher, probably would have that issue, but we missed the mark with Avisail (vs. Iglesias...whom would be just what the Dr. ordered in hindsight) and Davidson so I don't know if trading works better either. Oh, Oh, don't forget how badly signing them in FA has worked! Basically I think we just need to import all our position players from Cuba. It's the only thing that works!

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 05:18 PM) If you don't get a guy MLB ready or close, then you might just be better off with the comp pick and going with your own scouting. I might be overvaluing Shark, you might be undervaluing him. Reality is probably somewhere in between you and I's posts but if you aren't getting a top 100 prospect and another guy who you like quite a bit (at a minimum), you probably shouldn't make the trade. On the flip side, if you turn it into a 3 team deal, you could find a team willing to give us a young position player and them getting prospects from the contender. Plenty of ways to structure this thing but I think if Sox are smart, they move Shark early while others are waiting to get in. Of course, it could back fire if they don't properly market his availability. That's a Helluva lot more than I'd expect in return for him, but we'll see.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 05:17 PM) This starts and ends IN THE f***ING HOME, not on a flag pole. Until parents STOP passively or actively teaching their kids to become racists, this will continue to occur no matter how many flags you remove. What exactly do you think displaying the Confederate flag is?

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 05:13 PM) Right, but as a rent, all teams need him for his this year. Rents are much cleaner transactions. Teams will pay more value than 1/2 a year of a good pitcher. What 1/2 a year of a good pitcher gets is another question. You have to hunt - find vulnerabilities of other teams and find places where they are overstocked and might overpay. And that's why I said that if you're insisting on a guy who's MLB ready right now...that's going to make that very tough.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:05 PM) Do you mean Bonds or Rose? In both cases, it is not about not liking them as a person. It is about how they treated baseball. And as for Piazza, I don't think his chances are much better than Bonds, but we'll see. I read that as absolutely referring to tetrahydrogestrinone.

QUOTE (Mike F. @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:59 PM) I don't get why the Twins would move Buxton from the leadoff spot to #9 in the order. He provided a spark last night, why fix something if it ain't broke? Leads off against the lefty, less pressure against the righty. In minors hit .341 against lefties and .270 against righties this year.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 05:04 PM) I agree he was thought to be our asset, but that was a buyer's deadline from what I remember vs. this being viewed as a sellers deadline. I also think more teams would rather take Shark vs. the alternative and one thing to remember, sometimes teams prefer getting the guy with the expiring deal vs. another deal. During the deadline, one of the things we heard was a lot of teams shied away from Peavy because they weren't interested in having him come back. Could all have been posturing and by no scenario was I saying his contract was an albatross, it wasn't. Relatively speaking, he was paid fairly (you didn't have some huge salary arbitrage one way or the other). Samardzija definitely is not in the same pool as Cole Hamels for guys teams are looking at to put them over the top given that some teams definitely will not be able to absorb Hamels's deal...but Jeff Samardzija is not even the best right handed starter nearing free agency on the trade market, that's Cueto.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:59 PM) While his strikeout rate is down and his walk rate is slightly up (both are still good numbers), he's also giving up a lot more hits (with a relatively constant HR rate). Didn't look into his line driver rate but I'd argue some of his current results are probably driven by our defense (which sucks) as well as potentially a little negative luck in their. His walk rate is actually down, but his strikeout, fly ball, and line drive rates are all the worst of his career as a starter. That's not on the defense, he's getting hit harder and striking out fewer players. If I'm looking at his line, I'm more than a little nervous and frankly looking at his line this year makes me extra-glad the Sox didn't extend him. He is giving up more hits out of his ground balls than in previous years - that's the defense. His HR rate hasn't spiked despite the line drives and FB, so that's not hurting him as much as it could either.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:57 PM) At least they had comparable WAR's and it wasn't as if Peavy's contract was a "bargain" at the time. Throwing a negative WAR player who had no long-term track record of success was awful. I just picked two recent Sox pitchers who were traded and their relative WAR's. Jake Peavy was a guy under team control for 1.5 years, had an excellent 2013, and was viewed as a pretty solid bargain. That's why he was thought to be our asset on the trade market that year. When we got him to sign that contract people were excited because they thought he was helping us out.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:52 PM) Just looking at last year's deadline, Andrew Miller, a relief pitcher with 1.3 WAR at the time of the trade, returned Eduardo Rodriguez, a top-25 prospect on at least one list who is now doing well in the majors. Martin Prado had 0.9 WAR when he was traded for Peter O'Brien, a catching prospect who will change positions but has plus power. I'm not saying we're going to turn around the team based on who we get for Samardzija, but Balta was acting like 3 win players aren't worth anything. I want to stress more here...I did not say that. I was replying to a specific note saying that teams might think some of his struggling was due to the poor team around him...with the important point that those same teams will say "but things he can control, like striking guys out and getting the ball weakly hit, are down too".

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:51 PM) McCarthy was a 3 WAR player on the season. He had a negative WAR (BR WAR since Fangraphs doesn't have the WAR breakout by team) with the Dbacks. So the Dbacks go nothing for a RHP who had a negative WAR at the time of trade. Not at all a valid comp in this equation. - Jake Peavy was a 1WAR pitcher at the time we traded him. - Shark was a 2 WAR pitcher at the time he was traded to Oakland Oh come on, you're going to say the phrase "Not a valid comp in this equation" and then in the same breath you immediately cite 2 pitchers who were under team control for 1.5 years when they were traded as comparison for a guy who's a free agent this fall?

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:50 PM) 2 months of Andrew Miller turned into Eduardo Rodriguez last year. Teams are absolutely willing to overpay for relief help. For an example we're familiar with - the White Sox paid David Robertson more than he's worth in value terms. The Padres probably similarly overpaid a little bit for Kimbrel. I'd have no issues trying to move some of the better parts of our bullpen this deadline to see if someone takes a chance on them and is willing to overpay a bit.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:37 PM) 3 WAR players have fetched plenty at the trade deadline. You know that. They'll be able to get something for him but if they want something big-league ready or close to it they won't get anyone that impressive. Closest I could find to a guy like that, 3 months remaining and ~3 win player last year was the Brandon McCarthy deal and he brought back Vidal Nuno, 26 year old reliever I haven't heard of until right now.

You can't say that a single use of the word N**** was what turned this guy into a murderer. That is not a justification for using the word. You guys know better than this. You guys know the kind of environment this person grew up in. Hell I got plenty of it in Northwestern Indiana, let alone when I was in the South. The community looks the other way, they rant about how the (insert racist word) are ruining things, how they're just not good enough or smart enough, and eventually something clicks. Yes it's just one. Yes it's just getting rid of one flag. It's only 1 step along the lines of "neutralizing this kind of hateful environment". But at some point you do have to tell them no. You do have to tell a person it's not ok to fly a racist symbol. You do have to tell someone that it's not ok to rant about the (insert racist words). And when no one has the decency to do those things, then this environment festers, smolders, until it gets some air and erupts again. That's why you do the right thing.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:20 PM) Has Avi's knee contributed to his recent poor play? He was our best hitter before he went down, and since he's come back his performance has plummeted. I'm not blaming it all on the knee but that has to be part of it, right? I think Avi was completely due for this. In fact, I think that him being hurt last year made sure it happened this year. He's been blooping the ball to RF barely over the 2b's head to keep his batting average up rather than driving the ball for 2 seasons now - we saw it in '13 when he came up, we saw it in '14 at the end of the season. If he's hitting a decent batting average and getting his hits, why does he need to work on his approach, he can keep doing that right? Well no, the ball doesn't fall like that all the time. This year a majority of his HR have come to the opposite field which means he's not pulling the ball. In fact here's a remarkable one....he's a right handed hitter and through 2014-2015 he has 0 doubles down the left field line - not a single one. He doesn't get out ahead of balls and he doesn't pull the ball with authority. All of his power is up and away, so people beat him elsewhere. Combine that with his overly aggressive style and he is a guy who swings too much with too many holes in his swing. Maybe he can get out of that. Maybe he would have been helped if he hadn't gotten hurt and he'd gone through this slump last year, but he was bound to go through it with his approach.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 03:27 PM) But what about his fWAR Balta? That's your go-to, be-all and end-all. I guess when the Sox have a guy on pace for 3+ WAR you don't mention it because it doesn't fit your narrative. That leaves any team trading for him trading for 1 fWAR in July. 1 fWAR.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 03:59 PM) I have a hard time saying this team needs 3-4 years to win. With the pitching they have in Chicago and in the pipe, they can put together good to great staffs (barring unforseen injuries which are a risk across all teams anyway) continuously for that period. And usually, pitching is the hardest part to build. They need better offense and defense from the entire skill infield set and catcher. That should be the focus. If enough of those 4 positions can improve substantially, you have a contending team. That's not an easy task, but we are also only talking about 4 positions so it isn't impossible. Yes Avisail is a worry, but he's the least of your problems if this teams skill infield and catcher were putting up even league average numbers on both sides of the ball. That's literally all it would take, in my view, to make the Sox contenders in 2016 - league average or better (both sides) players at those 4 roles. (before anyone screams, I am not saying you can't also improve elsewhere, just that the OF and 1B/DH are either good enough or having unusually bad years so they aren't a priority in my eyes) QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 04:02 PM) I completely agree with you. Just think to 2004 off-season (leading up to 2005), we added Pods / Iguchi / Dye / AJP. That is a CF / 2B / RF / C. If we were able to pull off a coup like that again, all of which were avg. to above avg starters at their respective positions, we'd be a serious contender. I don't think we even necessarily have to go to that extreme, although we clearly need to see significant roster turnover in the everyday lineup. Where that comes from, I don't know, but we do have assets in our farm system to move (plus Shark and potentially a guy like Q). This could include people like Tim Anderson who we flip for other prospects if we see fit. For the counterpoint...I see this as exactly what we tried to do this year. "Oh we just need to overpay for a few league-average players". Now we've wound up with 5 holes by your count, 6-7 by mine. Even if we go by your count ont he FA market, we're talking about adding $50 million again, to a payroll already at $110 million. But the sad thing is of course, I pretty much expect us to do something like that. Blow another $20 million trying to find league-average players, fail to fix anything else, go into next year with another solid payroll, win 70 games, and then come up with another plan for the next year that winds up with us winning 72. Because that's the White Sox organization.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:28 PM) Or you could turn them into nothing quite easily. Which is what they're going to turn into anyway unless we can fundamentally reshape this organization.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:16 PM) Maybe a GM could see the lack of run production contributes to that struggling. Problem is there's other things they can see too - like the worst strikeout and worst gb rates of his career - and think that he's actually not a very solid piece to add right now.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:58 PM) Trade Danks, with Anderson and perhaps one of the pitching prospects (Danish for example), maybe throw in one of the toolsy outfielders (Thompson/Engel/May), in exchange for a SS or 2B with a decent or better bat who fields their position well and is under control for at least a few years. I think that can happen. Its a value proposition, and in the end you have more money to work with, an upgraded defensive MIF player, a rotation slot open for Johnson/Montas/Fulmer (depending on timing), and lose a prospect or two you can't easily use right now. FWIW, if I'm taking on Danks even with Anderson I'm not giving you a likely starter back.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:45 PM) I heard someone say you can't coach the stupid out of the player. I think the Sox philosophy is that these can always be teachable no matter how deficient a player is in that area. Most kids finishing college have a least 10 years of baseball experience. If they don't have a clue on how to play the game by then how much better is it going to be now that they are going to be playing at a higher level. In that case then they need to completely shift their priorities and start finding players who have these skills. Take a look at the guys we've brought in during these trades and the guys we were relying on this year - Avi, Melky, Micah, Gillaspie - you can't look at the lineups we're putting out on a daily basis and think "Man the White Sox really went after guys who value fundamentals". We're making it a point, over and over, to bring these guys in. If we can't coach them to do this work better...then we need to stop bringing guys like that in to fill out our roster.