Milkman delivers

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 11:33 PM) It still included the extraordinary run, so you can't look past that. And there were a lot of reasons they missed the playoffs...I'd argue that, instead of looking at a 55 game stretch where they were 9 games under .500, to instead look at an 18 game period where they were 8 games under .500 - 5-13 against the team that won the division has a stronger correlation to them missing the playoffs than does a rough start to the season. A .513 winning percentage over a 5 year period is pretty damn remarkable. I would guess, over the same time frame, there are 6 teams that are better. My guesses are the Phillies, Cardinals, Red Sox, Yankees, Twins, and Angels. It's hard to have any type of sustained success over that period of time unless you have a clear advantage - whether singular or some combination of advantages - in some aspect over every other team. The Phillies have had great scouting and development and have become big time spenders, the Cardinals have had the best player of the generation, the Angels have had money and some player development, the Twins have relied pretty much solely upon scouting and development until recent years, and the Yankees and Red Sox have pretty much been #1 and #2 in spending throughout that time frame (and considering all salary contributions during that time frame, they are certainly #1 and #2). So you can't look at this from a single season point of view because you have to account for some variability and different levels of talent on the teams themselves. And, if it WERE the 5 years of frustration, people would have been b****ing about wanting a new GM and manager in the offseason. I can think of about 1 person on here who was advocating for a new GM and maybe 3 who were advocating for a new manager. This is ENTIRELY because of one 7-10 start. I have seen several, if not close to 100% of the board, who have said that if 2011 doesn't result in a playoff appearance (or at the very least, a great season with a ridiculous amount of bad luck, as in the Sox go 97-75 and lose the division and the Wild Card), then you clean house. I'm on board with that too because, at that point, something has to give. Such as having a top two payroll in the division since 2001? Or having the top payroll in 5 of those years?

It's never going to be acceptable to say enough is enough. People will always claim that you are reacting only to something very recent. If all things remain the same into next year and they start off badly again, people will ask for a change due to the failings of the 2012 team, the current team, and the teams of the recent past. Ignoring all of that, certain posters will say it's an overreaction due to the most recent stretch of games.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 09:24 PM) I don't have a problem talking about the problems of this team, because there are problems with this team, even some I didn't envision it having. Fact of the matter is, the board is seemingly split pretty equally into "it's too early to worry about this stuff" and "this team is toast, sell it off and cancel the season." There is absolutely no middle ground whatsoever. So, if you want to talk about problems this team is having, that's absolutely fine, because I'll talk about the problems this team is having. But if you are going to even bring up the thought of this team selling parts off at this point in the year, I'm going to call you ridiculous or stupid or overreactive and then we're going to get even less done than we normally do on this site. See, this is garbage. People have been saying it's too early to call it a season, but that a fire sale will happen if things continue this way. For some reason, a lot of people on this site can only see black or white. Nobody sees the grey of posts with two scenarios in it.

QUOTE (Knackattack @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 08:29 PM) I'm tired of our GM telling us that his expectations are to win the World Series every year and then have a s***ty baseball team. Well played, sir.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 08:28 PM) And I am tired of the expectations of winning the world series every year Haha WHAT?! That is exactly what every fan's expectations should be every year, unless a team is obviously in a rebuilding phase.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 07:20 PM) Hello Minnesota Twins? Oh God, am I tired of being compared to other losers. And despite them having short playoff appearances, they've had many more appearances in a much shorter span of time.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 06:56 PM) So...we trust the franchise to make the right selections, but only if those selections aren't KW or Oz. Got it. You are absolutely right. We should just stick with what isn't working.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 07:00 PM) SO WILL SCREAMING ABOUT THEM ON A RANDOM MESSAGE BOARD. That won't help either, but we can't even talk about the problems the team is experiencing without people acting like we're saying that the world is coming to an end.

QUOTE (MuckFinnesota @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 05:43 PM) The following people should go on the record stating that there will be a fire sale on July 31, 2011: johndyce Marty34 Milkman delivers If others can't watch this team and will continue to gripe about prices, then why follow these teams? Also, is Boston or the Cubs going to have a fire sale because they are underachieving in terms of records? Cubs: 8-8 NYY: 9-5 Boston: 5-10 Also...why should the Sox offer discount codes when the Cubs suck for a vast majority of that 81 games and still charge full price? $5 tickets? How about no? Buy the standing room only and watch the game if you can't afford it. I never said there would be a firesale. I've said that it's a very real possibility based on what has happened so far. Perhaps you should put more time into reading and less into feeling sorry for yourself. QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 06:03 PM) Nope. I'd rather stand pat, fire our lousy GM and manager, and give the new guy the chance to trade our heavily priced veterans. I agree with the title of this thread, btw. Unless something really hard to forsee happens. A bad bullpen and defense is a recipe for failure, especially if our offense is going to go cold. This.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 04:47 PM) When your main metric is WS wins, sure. If its consistent WS contender, no. nice

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 04:30 PM) THE SEASON IS 10% OVER AND WE'RE FIVE GAMES OUT SELL SELL SELLLLLL SARCASM WILL DEFLECT ALL OF OUR OBVIOUS STRUGGLES AS A TEAM FOR BOTH THIS YEAR AND THE RECENT PAST

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 04:32 PM) You know, I'm not sure that I buy the "AL Central has been pretty weak" for the last decade. The AL East, for example, has had 2-3 moribund franchises for almost the whole decade, the Central has only had one. All of the other 4 teams from the Central have made the playoffs this decade, everyone except Detroit more than once. Every team has had at least 1 down year. Or you can take that and say that the division is so mediocre that basically anyone can win it. It's a farce for anyone to actually call the Central division good, and you know it.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 04:28 PM) Yes it does, it means you're watching a team that wins more games than it would at the same payroll if we weren't getting that. The White Sox, based on their payroll, should be an average team, winning about 81 games a year. Instead they average about 85. WOWIE! I can't wait to use that defense the next time someone mentions that the Sox have only been in the playoffs twice in ten years in a division in which they've had the highest payroll twice since 2001 and been in the top two every single year since that point. Or when it's mentioned that we've had 1 title in over 90 years, at least we average 85 wins when we should really only be at 81. I much prefer to be slightly better than mediocre than to be the very definition of it!

QUOTE (fathom @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 04:27 PM) It's insane...if it was someone like Carlos Zambrano who produced what Peavy has since he was acquired, people would be saying he was the biggest bust in Sox history. However, since they like Peavy and his "bulldog" approach, they're sitting around waiting for the Cy Young version of him to return (something he's said is likely gone for good). He said that?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 04:19 PM) You do realize that the AL Central is the only division with 3 $100 million+ teams this year, right? This is the first year of that

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 04:14 PM) Since 1993, the White Sox have won more games than any team in the American League with the exception of the Yankees, Red Sox and Indians, and they are JUST BEHIND the Indians. They've averaged 86+ wins per 162 games during that span. I really don't know what else to say. If you think this organization is s***, then do yourself a favor and just stop watching baseball. With four playoff appearances to show for it, being shown the door immediately in 3 of those 4 opportunities. Always just good enough to be relevant, but just bad enough to not make a splash.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 04:11 PM) That freakin team lost me 20 bucks to my roommate at the time. The bet? He got the Cardinals, I got the rest of the field in the f***in playoffs that year. Really? That's actually a pretty cool story.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 04:04 PM) Well that's because it always is. When you quite obviously have the most talented roster in your division and you're 7-9 in mid April it's always too freakin early to give up. This team quite clearly has a good offense and a solid top 4 of the rotation. Now, I was quite confident to start the year that our bullpen was going to be very good this year, I can't say I'm confident in that anymore. If they are, we have a good chance to not only make the playoffs but do some damage, if they continue to be dreadful, well than we're not going anywhere. And putting an April trend on a manager is just odd to me in baseball, the manager can only do so much and while I've been a huge critic of Ozzies(the guy honestly pisses me off to no end) I'm not pinning any odd trend like this on him, the start to this season is not his fault. That all being said, if we continue to struggle and fail to reach the post season, Ozzie and Kenny both need to go. I'm completely with you guys who believe that we've for the most part underachieved during this managements tenure and if this current roster can't succeed then we need some wholesale changes. This is the only light at the end of the tunnel for me. With each painful loss, I have a glimmer of hope and I can work up a smile knowing that they will also be gone.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 03:27 PM) Haha, whatever. I can think of quite a few teams that make the playoffs consistently and not all of them have payrolls of "a couple of hundred million dollars." All of these teams have made the playoffs more than the Sox in the last 10 years: Angels Athletics Twins Yankees Red Sox Braves Phillies Cardinals Cubs Astros Diamondbacks Dodgers Giants Hell, even the Indians, Rays, Rockies, and Padres have made the playoffs as many times as the Sox over the last 10 years. Now I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure the Sox have had the highest or second-highest payroll in the division in each of those 10 years. That is not good. And I hardly think it Red Sox-ian to expect better results. I fear you and others just have such low standards that anything other than a last place finish is acceptable. I just went back to check out my own numbers. According to USA Today, the White Sox have been in the top 2 of payroll in the division since 2001.

QUOTE (knightni @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 03:48 PM) As much as I'm not happy as to where the Sox are right now, dropping Ozzie and KW would be fool-hardy. Who is a better option out there right now for next year? KW is a very good GM with a bad habit of dragging corpses from the late '90s/early '00s onto the roster. Over the next 3 years, the Sox will be rebuilding and repairing the Doug Wilder mess and will have prospects to use from the home system. Beckham and Sale are the tip of it. Mitchell and Thompson can't be far behind. Sox fans are very short-sighted at times. How do you know that the grass on the other side of the fence is greener because it's better? How do you know that it's not Krylon and Astroturf? There are surely people out there who are better suited to rebuild a franchise. I don't know any specific people, as I'm not in the baseball field. Just because we don't know a particular person does not mean they don't exist. There may be dozens of qualified baseball minds readily available to take this team in a different direction. The job of the front office is to find these people and put them in a position to steer this team in another direction. Not every new manager/GM has to be a retread that was driven out of another city.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 03:53 PM) And you absolutely should but it's way too damn early to be giving up on this particular team that's for sure. This same debate happens every year, though. Some people think it's an entire organization problem. If this year ends the same way the last few have ended, there will still be people saying "it's too early" next season when the same thing is happening again.

QUOTE (hawksox13 @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 03:36 PM) That's great news! The sky isn't falling after all. It's got some visible cracks, though.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 03:32 PM) Peavy to miss one start. And that is what we consider a setback. Now to further probe, does he pick up where he left off with the pitch count? Or does he start from scratch again?

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 03:23 PM) *cough* At the time, I was very happy to see the Cardinals take it. I regret it everyday.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 03:07 PM) You forgot the kind that revels in misery. Jesus. I'm sorry I don't revel in the high-octane fun that is watching Peavy walk back to the dugout hoping that he doesn't break his ankle in doing so.